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DFCSS Email - Purchase of Shares

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35 minutes ago, Dblair said:

This is what bothers me. So FPS will PAY for the shares and then allow the society back in the circle of trust, to what? Donate the aforementioned money back?! Is it that simple? 

Probably

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Some Dees, albeit a small minority, are in favour of a merger so it wouldn't be a huge surprise if Tim Keyes, a guy without a major emotional attachment to DFC, felt a merger was the way forward for the city.

And if you were going to merge the clubs the time to do it would be at the same time as the new stadium opening so I can't help wondering if FPS want to have that option available to them now as they press forward with the stadium plans and United continue to haemorrhage cash in the Championship.

Maybe I'm being paranoid but we simply must cling on to that veto at all costs.

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I trust Nelms and Keyes as much as I trust Trump. I wonder if Steve Martin trusts them?

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55 minutes ago, Boba Fett said:

We’re merging with United... but I’ve managed to negotiate the removal of the hoses behind the Derry.

Where? Do you mean the stairway to heaven as Robert Islay plant would say?

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5 minutes ago, Double Blue said:

I trust Nelms and Keyes as much as I trust Trump. I wonder if Steve Martin trusts them?

He's got form for distancing himself. Not that I blame him.

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Its an interesting proposal and could work - but impossible to tell until you have sight of the future legal agreement - imperative to know what it contains and how enforceable it is.

Also worth noting that there is no mention of article 80-82 in the email, those are the clauses that guarantee the supporters society 2 seats on the board - they only apply to the A share so would need to see something written into the articles to guarantee the continuation of that

Obviously we would need to know what the ££ offer is for the shares - assuming they will be at nominal value 1p that would be £150k - not bad reserve for the society should future requirements dictate

I guess this possible shows what the issue was with Steve Martin and FPS - If FPS plan to transfer there shares to DBPH as outlined - Stev isnt a director of that company - perhaps his contributions to FPS shares isnt big enough for him to stop it, so he loses out - just speculation but feel for him if that is the case

A for the club now promising to work with the Society - thats affy nice of them 😶 considering the last 5 years and there complete reluctance to engage - they know this is obviously very tempting for the society directors as the fans/members see the society as pointless while they have no influence at Dens so to build the society again it opens the doors.... but at what price!

Will be armed and ready come Saturday with some questions, can see benefits either way

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Dayster said:

Its an interesting proposal and could work - but impossible to tell until you have sight of the future legal agreement - imperative to know what it contains and how enforceable it is.

Also worth noting that there is no mention of article 80-82 in the email, those are the clauses that guarantee the supporters society 2 seats on the board - they only apply to the A share so would need to see something written into the articles to guarantee the continuation of that

Obviously we would need to know what the ££ offer is for the shares - assuming they will be at nominal value 1p that would be £150k - not bad reserve for the society should future requirements dictate

I guess this possible shows what the issue was with Steve Martin and FPS - If FPS plan to transfer there shares to DBPH as outlined - Stev isnt a director of that company - perhaps his contributions to FPS shares isnt big enough for him to stop it, so he loses out - just speculation but feel for him if that is the case

A for the club now promising to work with the Society - thats affy nice of them 😶 considering the last 5 years and there complete reluctance to engage - they know this is obviously very tempting for the society directors as the fans/members see the society as pointless while they have no influence at Dens so to build the society again it opens the doors.... but at what price!

Will be armed and ready come Saturday with some questions, can see benefits either way

 

 

 

Had not picked up on the 2 directors Dayster. Excellent that you will be there. Main point should be to ask questions, but maybe not expect to get answers there on the day. I think those who will be involved should treat this as the first step by the DFCSS board in trying to ensure that they act in the best interests of DFCSS. The safeguards were put in there for good reasons which still seem to me to be valid. In America their football clubs can be moved from city to city as the franchises are sold, so you could understand why some of the safeguards are there.

As long as we ask the right questions, I think we will be able to help the board of DFCSS to take the right decisions. 

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6 hours ago, Bobby123 said:

How do I know if I am a member of DFCSS?

It's a £5 annual subscription - have you paid it?

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1 hour ago, Prince Buster said:

It's a £5 annual subscription - have you paid it?

Should we as Dee fans now be joining the Society to give it more strength and as a show of support for them?

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32 minutes ago, Abernethy Dee said:

Should we as Dee fans now be joining the Society to give it more strength and as a show of support for them?

4584161876_573x314.jpg

 

Edit to add..... phuq Uncle Sam. :lol2:

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15 hours ago, Harry94 said:

. In addition, the Society could provide backing the Club’s request for a renewed authority to issue shares as the Club’s Directors see fit to avoid the option of a general rights share issue to all shareholders.

Not sure how this would work? The AoA require the issue of new shares to be passed by ordinary resolution at an AGM. 

For this to happen - the club would need a call an AGM (they haven't done so since takeover) and add a motion for new share capital to be issued - this would be voted on, procedure states it a show of hands, which could easily mean a loss for the club, so they would go to a poll where 1 share = 1 vote and they would be able to win and issue new shares. I am not seeing a scenario where the society can back a request for them to allow them to avoid a general share issue. 

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12 hours ago, Double Blue said:

I trust Nelms and Keyes as much as I trust Trump. I wonder if Steve Martin trusts them?

Would you have rather been fans run, with no money, begging bowls out every 6 months, and probably playing in a far lower league than we are now?

Why did Steve Martin resign, anyway? I’ve never seen it confirmed.

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So. They are either converting debt into shares as reported in August, or,  they are buying out the vetoes.

Every business has an exit strategy and they may be looking at selling the club if the property development does not go ahead, or, looking at selling the club once the property development is completed.  Lets face it,  they can only be in Dundee for one reason and that is not sitting in the main stand, freezing their bollocks off watching Hamilton sclaffing pass backs.

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13 hours ago, Dayster said:

Will be armed and ready come Saturday with some questions, can see benefits either way

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to club politics and the ins and outs of DFCSS, shares, FPS and so on but I would think the number one question and the most important question that most of the fans would want asked is -

Can you rule out merging with Dundee United in any shape or form whilst you are custodians of our football club?

Obviously I mean for DFCSS to ask that to FPS during their next board meeting as I believe it's the DFCSS AGM this Saturday you're referring to.

Straight forward question that requires a straightforward answer ASAP as a matter of urgency.

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3 minutes ago, CW 90+3 02/05/16 said:

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to club politics and the ins and outs of DFCSS, shares, FPS and so on but I would think the number one question and the most important question that most of the fans would want asked is -

Can you rule out merging with Dundee United in any shape or form whilst you are custodians of our football club?

Obviously I mean for DFCSS to ask that to FPS during their next board meeting as I believe it's the DFCSS AGM this Saturday you're referring to.

Straight forward question that requires a straightforward answer ASAP as a matter of urgency.

Its not just amalgamating with United, the vetoes are there to keep us in dark blue and as DFC instead of Dundee City etc. 

It maybe doesn't matter to some but FPS agreed to these terms when they bought in, a mere 5 years later they want to change them to suit themselves. I can understand why they would want things their own way but its hardly playing nicely, especially on the back of their previous treatment of the Society (going back on the agreement to let them do the TV being a biggy). It makes me very wary though.

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3 minutes ago, CW 90+3 02/05/16 said:

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to club politics and the ins and outs of DFCSS, shares, FPS and so on but I would think the number one question and the most important question that most of the fans would want asked is -

Can you rule out merging with Dundee United in any shape or form whilst you are custodians of our football club?

Obviously I mean for DFCSS to ask that to FPS during their next board meeting as I believe it's the DFCSS AGM this Saturday you're referring to.

Straight forward question that requires a straightforward answer ASAP as a matter of urgency.

My one worry is that they are kind of hinding behind this and muddying the waters.

I don't know them or their thoughts so I can't say for sure but I'm 99% sure that they will have checked in on the fans forums from time to time or have some way to gauge opinion - the rebellion would make it unsustainable and hit a heavy blow for the new club on day one and there's no guarantee they'd ever recover from it; I'd be surprised if 25% of the existing fan base would continue to buy season tickets so I think you'd be starting with half the size of one of the clubs and splinters to phoenix clubs.

If I'm right on that, it'l be really easy to give those guarantees. By making it a story, it becomes the case that the whole focus of this process is a merger and there's a risk people will just switch off when that's ruled out.

The big issue for me is that they need to clarify what powers they will actually give up and importantly, what the stadium plan is if it falls through. I hate to say it but if this plan doesn't work out, there's a stadium across the road which from my understanding, doesn't haemmorige money near the same extent at Dens - there is the economic argument of moving in there and that represents a huge threat. If there's a refurbishment of Dens announced, we really need to have a lot of input in the whole process as it puts the club in a really vulnerable position - we would be playing across the street temporarily when the bulldozers moved in....

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1 minute ago, Chomp my root said:

Its not just amalgamating with United, the vetoes are there to keep us in dark blue and as DFC instead of Dundee City etc. 

It maybe doesn't matter to some but FPS agreed to these terms when they bought in, a mere 5 years later they want to change them to suit themselves. I can understand why they would want things their own way but its hardly playing nicely, especially on the back of their previous treatment of the Society (going back on the agreement to let them do the TV being a biggy). It makes me very wary though.

I suppose a potential issue is the finance part isn't really fit for purpose - I could see huge problems with it in the stadium financing. From my understanding there's a massive contradiction there where any financial obligations they make from the club would need to be approved by DFCSS to be secure and then the other partners would have reasons for needing confidentiality.

I'm skeptical of their actions right now but if the reason is as innocent as that, I think they've really got to get out there and explain it and pledge a fair shareholders agreement. I'm a bit disappointed that Dundee didn't announce at the same time but I'll keep an open mind and give them the opportunity for response - Nelms really needs to speak soon.

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12 minutes ago, Harry94 said:

I hate to say it but if this plan doesn't work out, there's a stadium across the road which from my understanding, doesn't haemmorige money near the same extent at Dens - there is the economic argument of moving in there and that represents a huge threat.

Heard that suggestion mentioned from someone in the last few weeks in person.

Who's to even say it would be temporary?

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45 minutes ago, Harry94 said:

My one worry is that they are kind of hinding behind this and muddying the waters.

I don't know them or their thoughts so I can't say for sure but I'm 99% sure that they will have checked in on the fans forums from time to time or have some way to gauge opinion - the rebellion would make it unsustainable and hit a heavy blow for the new club on day one and there's no guarantee they'd ever recover from it; I'd be surprised if 25% of the existing fan base would continue to buy season tickets so I think you'd be starting with half the size of one of the clubs and splinters to phoenix clubs.

If I'm right on that, it'l be really easy to give those guarantees. By making it a story, it becomes the case that the whole focus of this process is a merger and there's a risk people will just switch off when that's ruled out.

The big issue for me is that they need to clarify what powers they will actually give up and importantly, what the stadium plan is if it falls through. I hate to say it but if this plan doesn't work out, there's a stadium across the road which from my understanding, doesn't haemmorige money near the same extent at Dens - there is the economic argument of moving in there and that represents a huge threat. If there's a refurbishment of Dens announced, we really need to have a lot of input in the whole process as it puts the club in a really vulnerable position - we would be playing across the street temporarily when the bulldozers moved in....

Many  of the posts on this forum assume that Tim Keyes  is in Dundee for the good of DFC.   If you look at Keyes Capital website, their operation  is to invest family money into enterprises which will make money or companies to which they can add value.    It is obvious that without the "Real Estate" development they will exit DFC at the earliest opportunity and I am sure that nothing will be off limits to make the club sellable or ,at worst case, to mitigate their losses.  So, after having pumped in another £500.000 last August, just to keep us afloat, I cannot see them pumping millions into Dens. Shoring up a loss making business with no prospect of making a reasonable return is not part of the "American dream".  and whatever their long term plans are they will not be discussing them with us.

Edited by Cookie
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1 hour ago, Cookie said:

So. They are either converting debt into shares as reported in August, or,  they are buying out the vetoes.

Every business has an exit strategy and they may be looking at selling the club if the property development does not go ahead, or, looking at selling the club once the property development is completed.  Lets face it,  they can only be in Dundee for one reason and that is not sitting in the main stand, freezing their bollocks off watching Hamilton sclaffing pass backs.

This is the best point made in the whole thread. What if the new stadium is a dead duck and FPS want to cut their losses? The safeguarded rights were put in place for good reasons and it might be that they are indeed clearing the decks so that they can sell the club to someone else. It's total speculation, is against everything that JN has been saying recently and up until your post Cookie I would never have doubted the commitment from FPS.

DFCSS could allow the move to the new stadium by merely adding the name Nou Campy to go along side the current stadium at Dens Park. Problem solved for the move to the new stadium. As far as the club name and colours are concerned my view is that they should hold on to them. As for the borrowing, you need some security to get loans, either from a strong income stream, or asset backed. I can't see there being much likelihood of this being a threat to DFC.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Cookie said:

Many  of the posts on this forum assume that Tim Keyes  is in Dundee for the good of DFC.   If you look at Keyes Capital website, their operation  is to invest family money into enterprises which will make money or companies to which they can add value.    It is obvious that without the "Real Estate" development they will exit DFC at the earliest opportunity and I am sure that nothing will be off limits to make the club sellable or ,at worst case, to mitigate their losses.  So, after having pumped in another £500.000 last August, just to keep us afloat, I cannot see them pumping millions into Dens. Shoring up a loss making business with no prospect of making a reasonable return is not part of the "American dream".  and whatever their long term plans are they will not be discussing them with us.

I don't think they will be pumping millions into Dens. The key is Nou Campy and I'd expect that it would be financed on the basis of their business plan which covers many more enterprises than just football. If this fails then I don't see a way forward for them because none of the options for Nou Campy are viable at Dens and it's absolute fantasy that the footprint for both Dens and Tannadice can be put together to deliver a significant area for commercial development IMO.

Clearing the decks for a sale might be a hidden agenda. As I said in an earlier reply to your post on this idea, I don't think it is what they want to do, but if they don't get their plans passed then it might well be something that they have to do.  

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18 minutes ago, Cookie said:

Many  of the posts on this forum assume that Tim Keyes  is in Dundee for the good of DFC.   If you look at Keyes Capital website, their operation  is to invest family money into enterprises which will make money or companies to which they can add value.    It is obvious that without the "Real Estate" development they will exit DFC at the earliest opportunity and I am sure that nothing will be off limits to make the club sellable or ,at worst case, to mitigate their losses.  So, after having pumped in another £500.000 last August, just to keep us afloat, I cannot see them pumping millions into Dens. Shoring up a loss making business with no prospect of making a reasonable return is not part of the "American dream".  and whatever their long term plans are they will not be discussing them with us.

This has been the cause of my 'unease' (for lack of a better word) from the start. They're an investment company and I'd hoped that they could make enough money in this enterprise to make it worth their while and drag us along with them although I'd no idea how. The stadium development seemed like they had found a way although I was starting to get concerned that they would have no need for direct control over the club and might be happy to move it on to new owners and charge them rent (which would have its own potential problems). 

As others have said, if the club want this to happen they might be best to be more open about what it is they think they need and why.

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We might have to change our name to Dundee County anyway, the way things are going. :lol2:

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