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Edin_Dee

In Hindsight

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I am grateful that Tim Keyes is here and  has our best interests at heart.  John Nelms needs someone more used to football alongside him to let him do the things that he is good at. That would give him the opportunity to gain experience in the football side of things.  We as a club seem to  struggle with customer relations. However and ultimately, the club's customers seek a decent football team, not Champions League standard but decent.  Customers need a team that wins at home, where they pay their money. That  failure over the last two seasons probably worsens customer relations more than anything. The previous fan model didn't and couldn't put a decent team on the park. Their customer relations was terrible, worse than it is now.

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1 hour ago, Prince Buster said:

Here's a challenge for you.

Tell me where I said I dislike John brown.

I think his appointment was a disgrace by Gardiner and his 'big unveiling' was comic cuts stuff, I think he did what he could with his very limited managerial ability, I think he jumped ship when he realised how limited he was and I think by jumping ship he did all of us a huge favour.

I don't dislike him, I just think he was never a football manager and should never have been appointed - scary thing is Nelms did it all over again with McCann.

I was talking in general not necessarily from you.

Why is Bomber disliked so much?

As you said, Nelms did the exact same with McCann and now look where we are :) on the verge of relegation.  

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21 minutes ago, dblair said:

Thought I’d have a quick bash at your questions mate 😉

Never asked you 😜

Good answers though.

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12 minutes ago, J_Kitamirike said:

I was talking in general not necessarily from you.

Why is Bomber disliked so much?

As you said, Nelms did the exact same with McCann and now look where we are :) on the verge of relegation.  

Understood J_K.

I honestly think Brown was on a loser from the moment he was announced.  Some of the names being linked with the job at the time were exciting and when mentioned the concensus was that Brown didn't have a hope, some even laughed no doubt - I dismissed his chances. Then he was 'revealed' in the worst possible situation for him and it spiralled down from there. He was a scapegoat for the general disregard the fans had for Gardiner I reckon.

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3 minutes ago, Prince Buster said:

Never asked you 😜

Good answers though.

🤪

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1 hour ago, dblair said:

Again exactly this. 

The point I have highlighted is the most important and most worrying factor for me. Up until now Tim Keyes has (happily or not) plugged the gaps.

But you’d have to imagine that this will not last forever. I just hope that he can see the reasons and root cause of such losses, which are in my opinion the poor decision making by JN. 

Going forward something has to change, I just hope that they don’t abandon ship

I agree mate, if the new stadium falls through you've got wonder how long they'll stick around for.

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4 minutes ago, nemsadzDEE said:

I agree mate, if the new stadium falls through you've got wonder how long they'll stick around for.

To be honest if it does then I wouldn’t blame them for trying to bail out. I would hate for it to happen but at the end of the day Tim Keyes is a businessman who works in the investment into companies/organisation which have the potential for a return on investment through growth. Without a new stadium development and all the trimmings there is zero chance of that for him unfortunately ☹️

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9 minutes ago, Prince Buster said:

Never asked you 😜

Good answers though.

Can anyone oot there, please NO ask me anything ... So eh can answer them?

(If no me ... I'll check oot, one o' the many voices in meh heid) :wacko:

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3 hours ago, bp33 said:

If we had continued under fan ownership, I think we’d have been a mid table championship club at best now. The season ticket announcement, has been handled badly, but is not a reason to hound FPS out of the club.

 

I’m not so sure I agree. Under fan ownership we finished second (which led to a promotion). Second season I don’t think our relegation could be blamed on fan ownership given the circumstances. Third season the squad which won the league was assembled under fan ownership. Granted I don’t think we would of won the league but we could well have won a play off against a Hibs side in freefall. 

I don’t for a second believe that under fan ownership we would have less resources than the likes of Livingston and Ayr United - two teams who have assembled squads good enough to get promoted

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I will probably get slaughtered for this post but in my opinion there was never any talk of fan ownership until Calum Melville suddenly resigned as a director of Dundee Football Club Limited near the of September 2010. 

When that happened the £150,000 per month that he was allegedly handing over suddenly ended and Admin 2 beckoned. 

The directors of DFCSS were suddenly thrust into the limelight and after the end of the Admin 2 period in May 2011 DFCSS were the majority shareholder. 

If the DFCSS directors had not been appointed directors of Dundee Football Club Limited who was going to sit in the boardroom and run Dundee FC. 

I do not seem to remember people rushing to put their names forward to become a director of Dundee Football Club.

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29 minutes ago, Edin_Dee said:

I’m not so sure I agree. Under fan ownership we finished second (which led to a promotion). Second season I don’t think our relegation could be blamed on fan ownership given the circumstances. Third season the squad which won the league was assembled under fan ownership. Granted I don’t think we would of won the league but we could well have won a play off against a Hibs side in freefall. 

I don’t for a second believe that under fan ownership we would have less resources than the likes of Livingston and Ayr United - two teams who have assembled squads good enough to get promoted

The biggest problem that FPS has, is this notion that DFC are a sleeping giant. The truth is,we are a club that has a core support of 4-5000 supporters. 

I personally don’t want them to buy Dens, unless they were going to completely redevelop it, as in my opinion the at,osphere and match day experience is terrible, with our support at different ends of the ground. 

We are definitely living, out with our means, but as long as they are willing to fund this, it’s not a problem. As someone else said, fan ownership is fine for a club like Stirling, but not for us.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nemsadzDEE said:

I agree mate, if the new stadium falls through you've got wonder how long they'll stick around for.

I think they'll look to bail if they DO get their stadium too, if they can move us on to another owner then that owner will be plugging the holes in the budget and paying DBH rent to boot. Win/win for FPS/DBH.

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5 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

I think they'll look to bail if they DO get their stadium too, if they can move us on to another owner then that owner will be plugging the holes in the budget and paying DBH rent to boot. Win/win for FPS/DBH.

Never thought of that! It all depends on what % of income goes to the club as if it was  a large amount then the club would suddenly be more  attractive to potential buyers.  Maybe Keyes plans on making money by selling a club that makes a profit in a brand new stadium? Seems far fetched though.

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2 minutes ago, nemsadzDEE said:

Never thought of that! It all depends on what % of income goes to the club as if it was  a large amount then the club would suddenly be more  attractive to potential buyers.  Maybe Keyes plans on making money by selling a club that makes a profit in a brand new stadium? Seems far fetched though.

Be easier to sell the club to a new owner without all those pesky vetoes too..... just saying....

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7 hours ago, Prince Buster said:

Few questions. Not having a go just asking for your thoughts - 

1. We will finish above United again this season - what do you think about next season? Do you think we'll finish above them next season?  

2. What's more important to you, finishing above united or seeing a decent Dundee side on the park that can entertain and actually win now and again?

3. What current internationalists do we have in our first team? 

4. If fan ownership hadn't happened what state do you think the club would be in right now? Was it really that awful or was it something that was the right thing and necessary at that time? Was there an alternative?

5. With the best will in the world I can't see the new stadium ever being a reality - can you?

6. Future prospects (if there are any) and players signing for us before United aside. What players have come through our competitive youth system and are currently making a positive contribution to the first team?

1 I don’t think we will be in the same league as Utd next season.  But if we are then both teams need overhauling in the summer and I suppose it’s who does it better. I don’t think there  will be much in the wages that both teams would pay but always think there training facilities and stadium gives them the advantage over us.

2 It’s all about winning, this decent football crap that PH and NMc went on about does not work at our level of pay, get the players to play in a system that works and are comfortable with, St Johnstone, Killie, Motherwell, are consistently in this league as they do that. St Johnstone played fine football when they beat us earlier in the season at Dens as they had confidence.

3 Since FPS came in Kallman, Kamarra, Wighton, McGowan (on loan) is international player, Bain was in the Scotland squad.

4 still be in the first having never been out it, if we never got out the season we did then we would have to compete with Rangers, Hibs , Hearts.

5 Yes I can, FPS made a massive statement when they paid over £2million for the land. I think a groundshare with Utd in a new stadium will happen. This is why need better communication from FPS,  just be honest and let the fans know what the hold up is, we have been through worse news than being told it’s fell through.

6 Wighton, Kerr, Lambert, Henvey, Wadell. I was more alluding to the younger age groups. My young lad is pro youth and it’s at this age where united used to cherry pick the best players, now the kids are choosing Dundee as well as United as there is not much between the set ups.

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No-one is going to make money owning Dundee FC.  Our owners are in the property business and will surely be looking to make their return one way or another through the real estate development.  Would not surprise me if they are currently thinking WTF … this is a tougher gig than we anticipated.   Probably comes down to can they get the stadium complete and turn a buck in the process.  If not there is no reason for them to hang around but football club ownership is a bizarre world that never makes sense to me.

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40 minutes ago, BigG said:

1 I don’t think we will be in the same league as Utd next season.  But if we are then both teams need overhauling in the summer and I suppose it’s who does it better. I don’t think there  will be much in the wages that both teams would pay but always think there training facilities and stadium gives them the advantage over us.

2 It’s all about winning, this decent football crap that PH and NMc went on about does not work at our level of pay, get the players to play in a system that works and are comfortable with, St Johnstone, Killie, Motherwell, are consistently in this league as they do that. St Johnstone played fine football when they beat us earlier in the season at Dens as they had confidence.

3 Since FPS came in Kallman, Kamarra, Wighton, McGowan (on loan) is international player, Bain was in the Scotland squad.

4 still be in the first having never been out it, if we never got out the season we did then we would have to compete with Rangers, Hibs , Hearts.

5 Yes I can, FPS made a massive statement when they paid over £2million for the land. I think a groundshare with Utd in a new stadium will happen. This is why need better communication from FPS,  just be honest and let the fans know what the hold up is, we have been through worse news than being told it’s fell through.

6 Wighton, Kerr, Lambert, Henvey, Wadell. I was more alluding to the younger age groups. My young lad is pro youth and it’s at this age where united used to cherry pick the best players, now the kids are choosing Dundee as well as United as there is not much between the set ups.

1. I think we will be relegated and will be in the same division as United next season - unless we get them in a play off of course. Like you I think both sides will be seriously overhauled however I'm not sure we have the person in place to pick the manager to do our overhaul properly and we will finish below United next season if we're in the same division. I have no confidence in the club's senior management any more.

2. Agree that winning is the main thing. Finishing above United is a bonus and entertainment would maybe be a bit much to ask for but seeing a Dundee win would be wonderful right now. Can't see where the next one will come from however.

3. These were all internationalists admittedly but really not players that contributed massively this season to our first team. Right now we have no internationalists in the squad.

4. You're probably right about had we not allowed FPS in we'd probably not have been promoted when we were. That division got very strong and we most likely wouldn't have competed.

5. Sorry but whilst admiring your optimism on the stadium prospects I just think that it's gone too quiet and that it's stalled too much and dropped out of the sky. For me it seems highly unlikely ever to happen. I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

6. Don't know about players currently coming through but the ones you've named (possibly Kerr aside) again have made little contribution to the first team this season. I hope you're right about our system being good and that it produces good players, again though I have my doubts. Having had a son involved with the club myself previously I hope it all works out for yours.

 

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1 hour ago, BigG said:

1 I don’t think we will be in the same league as Utd next season.  But if we are then both teams need overhauling in the summer and I suppose it’s who does it better. I don’t think there  will be much in the wages that both teams would pay but always think there training facilities and stadium gives them the advantage over us.

2 It’s all about winning, this decent football crap that PH and NMc went on about does not work at our level of pay, get the players to play in a system that works and are comfortable with, St Johnstone, Killie, Motherwell, are consistently in this league as they do that. St Johnstone played fine football when they beat us earlier in the season at Dens as they had confidence.

3 Since FPS came in Kallman, Kamarra, Wighton, McGowan (on loan) is international player, Bain was in the Scotland squad.

4 still be in the first having never been out it, if we never got out the season we did then we would have to compete with Rangers, Hibs , Hearts.

5 Yes I can, FPS made a massive statement when they paid over £2million for the land. I think a groundshare with Utd in a new stadium will happen. This is why need better communication from FPS,  just be honest and let the fans know what the hold up is, we have been through worse news than being told it’s fell through.

6 Wighton, Kerr, Lambert, Henvey, Wadell. I was more alluding to the younger age groups. My young lad is pro youth and it’s at this age where united used to cherry pick the best players, now the kids are choosing Dundee as well as United as there is not much between the set ups.

Hi BigG,

 I agree with most of your points raised apart from number 5 and 6. 

FPS paid just over £1.1 Million and certainly nowhere the £2 Million you stated. The company selling the ground must have thought all their Christmas’s had come at once seeing as the site had been up for sale for at least two years prior to FPS coming  along. 

According to the  Dundee United Football Company Limited Shareholders AGM meeting held on 1st March 2019 it was stated that United have no plans to groundshare or merge with Dundee FC. 

A couple of weeks ago I attended the Dundee FC in the Community Trust Seniors Group meeting which was a Q and A with James McPake. He told us all about Youth Football at Dens and how he has great hopes for some of the young players coming through but unfortunately it is down to the manager whether he decides to ‘blood’ young players in the first team. 

With our position in the Premier League for last season and this season and the continual change of the manager in my opinion it is unlikely that many young players will get their chance as each manager goes for a quick fix and a ‘safety first’ policy. 

 

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It was the right choice at the time to get FPS involved imo.

The problem was they should have given Hartley and McCann the objective of staying in the league before anything else.

That was an achievable target with our resources, it’s a disgrace that we are facing the drop, FPS did provide decent backing for the next 2 managers.

Hartley had a good CV but in reality like most Scottish managers he could not live up to it.

McCann should have known that you can’t survive in this league with Barcelona style football played by second rate players, this is where Nelms failed, he should have stepped in long before he did, the fact that he had no experience for his role was a fatal flaw in his appointment.

I think we can make the play-off spot, I doubt however we can win it.

If we go down as looks likely, anything can happen from liquidation to FPS jumping ship.

 

 

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Having worked with Yanks for decades. 

I cannot understand why the feck Keyes has not fired Nelms years before now?.

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I voted against FPS, not because I was against outward investment/a new Overlord but I just couldn't see what an American investment company saw in us as an opportunity. I was (and still am) slightly sceptical about their long term plans although I respect that they've put their hands deep in their pockets in their tenure. I had hoped that they might be looking to 'broaden their CV' possibly as an 'in' into English football in a "look what we've done with Dundee" kind of a way. I think we've been a wee speculative punt on their part and the Campy Nou is part of the progression of 'while we're here....' and I hope it pays off and I hope that the DFC part of FPS/DBH gets a stake in the new ground although I'm doubtful. 

Basically, another owner who is trying to make money out of the basketcase that is our club. I don't know how we stack up compared to other clubs and in fairness under FPS we've gained promotion and stayed up. Maybe 11th to 6th is as good as we can hope for and its just a pity that over the last few years a few unlikely candidates have won Cups and the likes of St. J have consistently punched above their weight giving us unrealistic expectations. I think its fair to say that FPS aren't here for DFC, for me, if they can drag us along with them to success (for them financially, for us on the park) then great but I've always feared for the long term, no different to any owner though I guess.

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1 hour ago, islaydarkblue said:

Hi BigG,

 I agree with most of your points raised apart from number 5 and 6. 

FPS paid just over £1.1 Million and certainly nowhere the £2 Million you stated. The company selling the ground must have thought all their Christmas’s had come at once seeing as the site had been up for sale for at least two years prior to FPS coming  along. 

According to the  Dundee United Football Company Limited Shareholders AGM meeting held on 1st March 2019 it was stated that United have no plans to groundshare or merge with Dundee FC. 

A couple of weeks ago I attended the Dundee FC in the Community Trust Seniors Group meeting which was a Q and A with James McPake. He told us all about Youth Football at Dens and how he has great hopes for some of the young players coming through but unfortunately it is down to the manager whether he decides to ‘blood’ young players in the first team. 

With our position in the Premier League for last season and this season and the continual change of the manager in my opinion it is unlikely that many young players will get their chance as each manager goes for a quick fix and a ‘safety first’ policy. 

 

My mistake re the £2 million then, ( solicitor fees , survey fees, commission will push that figure up somewhat) however, £1.1million is not to be bulked at and still a big commitment from FPS.. I’m led to believe that the council want this to happen which could be essential, the reason I said Utd with a joint stadium as it makes financial sense and Dundee approached the previous chairman who was not interested. Utd are now under new ownership and once again it make financial sense.

I agree with James  Mcpake that the manager has to play the younger players rather than loan players or squad players, however the team has to be balanced enough to do this and the player good enough. I was more alluding to the youth system that Dundee (under FPS)  have started to financially back. 

In your opinion who was the last custodian of the club that you felt did well on and off the field? As I said, FPS are the best I can remember and I went to my first game in 1980.

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45 minutes ago, BigG said:

My mistake re the £2 million then, ( solicitor fees , survey fees, commission will push that figure up somewhat) however, £1.1million is not to be bulked at and still a big commitment from FPS.. I’m led to believe that the council want this to happen which could be essential, the reason I said Utd with a joint stadium as it makes financial sense and Dundee approached the previous chairman who was not interested. Utd are now under new ownership and once again it make financial sense.

I agree with James  Mcpake that the manager has to play the younger players rather than loan players or squad players, however the team has to be balanced enough to do this and the player good enough. I was more alluding to the youth system that Dundee (under FPS)  have started to financially back. 

In your opinion who was the last custodian of the club that you felt did well on and off the field? As I said, FPS are the best I can remember and I went to my first game in 1980.

Hi BigG,

Thank you for your comments . 

If you read my original post James McPake stated that he had great hopes for some of the young players coming through but it was up to the manager whether he decided to ‘blood’ the players in the first team.

it was a lot easier when it was an 18 team league as there were often games near the end of each season where there was nothing at stake and it was an ideal time to give some of the young players a game in the first team.

Although it was a bit before your time you have probably heard of local Dundee players John Duncan and Iain Phillip who played for Dundee in the late 1960’s and early 70’s.

In my opinion under the current scheme of things at Dens John Duncan and Iain Phillip would never have been given their opportunity to place in the first team and would have been sent out on loan. At the end of their contract it might not have been renewed and a couple of stars of the future couldhavev ended up playing part time football at Montrose or Forfar. 

The problem with the Youth system at Dens was that during Admin 2 youth football was not a high priority as the main requirement was to have enough money to finish the 2010-11 season,

I remember Jim Davie who used to do the report for the Under 19’s games then and posted  it on the club website telling me at a Reserve game that we had a great Under 14 team at that time. The Under 14 players in the team included Cammy Kerr and Craig Wighton.

Shortly after you went to your first game in 1980 I became an armchair supporter preferring to play golf on a Saturday afternoon at Downfield Golf Club. 

Therefore the most stable custodians of the club in my time was in the 1960’s when we won the First Division Championship and we had wealthy directors who were prepared to put their hands in their pockets to balance the books. 

That being said Dundee have always been a selling club even in the ‘palmy days’ of the 1960’s. 

 

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