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blythswood

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The last time we played this formation was under Bomber. As I remember he first played it at Kilmarnock and it proved a good success for him in the SPL.

So he had Simonsen, Toshney, Lockwood, Gallagher, Bendictus, Easton, Davidson, McBride, McAlister, Harkins, Baird.

So why did it work better than Hartley's? Harkins, Toshney and Easton were key to it, I remember them causing teams all sorts of problems going forward. Harkins was much further forward and Toshney and Easton were suited to the wing back role. When we tried it again against QoS in the first game after relegation after those 3 had left it was a disaster, with Dyer and Irvine struggling in the wing back roles.

After watching Holt and McGinn similarly struggle with it and Harkins playing far too deep then it's possibly not the best formation for us.

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Unless you have top notch defenders and wing back who know how to do the job then this can't be done as we continously show

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Holt played all last season as a wing back in a 3-5-2 so he knows how to play the position. I think the problem is that when he gets it it's usually too deep to make any real impact. We need to get the ball out to the wing backs quicker so that they can get the ball out their feet and put crosses in in the final third. Holt can put in a decent ball as Loy's goal at Kilmarnock showed.

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Personally I think McGinn will struggle to be an effective wing back. He seems very reluctant to push on and actually best his man and at times his delivery is woeful.

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Holt played all last season as a wing back in a 3-5-2 so he knows how to play the position. I think the problem is that when he gets it it's usually too deep to make any real impact. We need to get the ball out to the wing backs quicker so that they can get the ball out their feet and put crosses in in the final third. Holt can put in a decent ball as Loy's goal at Kilmarnock showed.

Agreed, I think Holt looks like he could handle it if it's done right, but McGinn doesn't seem to have the legs for it.

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Agreed, I think Holt looks like he could handle it if it's done right, but McGinn doesn't seem to have the legs for it.

See I think McGinn has the legs and the engine to do it but his final ball and decision making are quite poor in the final third. He's quick enough too to be a decent wing back if he could work on his final ball.

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I can see what Hartley's trying to do, and I think it will work with the right personnel. Both centre backs need to be comfortable on the ball as they tend to come wider to support wing backs. Konrad/Extebeguren are reasonably comfortable on the ball from what I've seen. McPake less so, his "out" ball is a punt forward which more often than not gives away possession to the opposition.

The holding midfielder is key here as he will drop back into middle of defence when attacking down wings. This is normally KT's role and does this to great effect. Harkins has been deputising while KT is out injured. This is not Harkins best role and deprives the team of his attacking flair. His tackling is also woeful at best.

Regarding wing backs, they push much further up the pitch in a 3-5-2. Holt's been doing well in the position ****il Dunfermline) and has a decent final ball. He needs to work on his defensive game, but will learn. I am more concerned about McGinn, who who has a poor final ball and has been poor defensively for some time. We seem to have a dearth of right wing backs so why not give some of our "highly-rated" youngsters a go?

It also has to be said that I think Hartley has been deprived of his best team on the park so far due to injuries. Both KT and Nicky Low have been out for much of the season so far. Low played holding midfielder for parts of the game at Raith in pre-season and was excellent, controlling the game a la KT.

I also thought at the start of the season we were a centre forward light. Tank didn't cut it last season and I didn't expect miracles this season. It's still too early for Wighton to be a regular in the Premiership. Roberts was the forgotten man, now gone. Stewart's best position is not up front in a 2 but in a number 10 role or on the left/right in a 4-2-3-1. Loy looks very good at finding space in the box and look forward to seeing more of him. I've not been that impressed with Hemmings so far. Looks very much a penalty box striker, but has missed numerous crucial chances/has been guilty of poor decision making. Stewart was going off his nut at him at Dunfermline, and this is seemingly a partnership that scored 27 goals in 27 starts when they played together at Cowdenbeath.

All in all though, still doing quite well for a team that's still gelling. A win on Sat. will see us sitting maybe 4th or 5th

Edited by OsloDee
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re wing backs;

agree Holt looks like he could do the biz  if pushed up a wee bit forward.

As for mcginn, cant see it maself.

He runs like hes got a rock in one o  ees boots ,or its  his achilles.

Dont want tae go on banging the drum for Kerr,but anytime e,ve seen him he looks the part.

Maybe its because mcginn was Paul,s signing,hes been loath tae drop him , as it widnae look guid what wi some o the ither haddies hes signed.

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re wing backs;

agree Holt looks like he could do the biz if pushed up a wee bit forward.

As for mcginn, cant see it maself.

He runs like hes got a rock in one o ees boots ,or its his achilles.

Dont want tae go on banging the drum for Kerr,but anytime e,ve seen him he looks the part.

Maybe its because mcginn was Paul,s signing,hes been loath tae drop him , as it widnae look guid what wi some o the ither haddies hes signed.

Why not try Irvine again at right back? Has a goal threat too.

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Why not try Irvine again at right back? Has a goal threat too.

No big improvement from McGinn IMO. Similar players, struggle with the final ball.

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Problem with three centre halves is nominating who your marking then organising who covers when wing backs bomb on, then not relying on one of the other two dealing with sh*t.

One should be ready to come out and deal with runners tae, and come through with ball start moves. agree that backs should be high on park and ggh further up too, we'll see what system ph plays tomorrow, sure he knows all this anyway!

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I can see what Hartley's trying to do, and I think it will work with the right personnel. Both centre backs need to be comfortable on the ball as they tend to come wider to support wing backs. Konrad/Extebeguren are reasonably comfortable on the ball from what I've seen. McPake less so, his "out" ball is a punt forward which more often than not gives away possession to the opposition.

The holding midfielder is key here as he will drop back into middle of defence when attacking down wings. This is normally KT's role and does this to great effect. Harkins has been deputising while KT is out injured. This is not Harkins best role and deprives the team of his attacking flair. His tackling is also woeful at best.

Regarding wing backs, they push much further up the pitch in a 3-5-2. Holt's been doing well in the position ****il Dunfermline) and has a decent final ball. He needs to work on his defensive game, but will learn. I am more concerned about McGinn, who who has a poor final ball and has been poor defensively for some time. We seem to have a dearth of right wing backs so why not give some of our "highly-rated" youngsters a go?

It also has to be said that I think Hartley has been deprived of his best team on the park so far due to injuries. Both KT and Nicky Low have been out for much of the season so far. Low played holding midfielder for parts of the game at Raith in pre-season and was excellent, controlling the game a la KT.

I also thought at the start of the season we were a centre forward light. Tank didn't cut it last season and I didn't expect miracles this season. It's still too early for Wighton to be a regular in the Premiership. Roberts was the forgotten man, now gone. Stewart's best position is not up front in a 2 but in a number 10 role or on the left/right in a 4-2-3-1. Loy looks very good at finding space in the box and look forward to seeing more of him. I've not been that impressed with Hemmings so far. Looks very much a penalty box striker, but has missed numerous crucial chances/has been guilty of poor decision making. Stewart was going off his nut at him at Dunfermline, and this is seemingly a partnership that scored 27 goals in 27 starts when they played together at Cowdenbeath.

All in all though, still doing quite well for a team that's still gelling. A win on Sat. will see us sitting maybe 4th or 5th

Great first post, welcome to the Darkblues :)

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5 at the back is a dead system in modern football. Back in the 1980s/90s when the sweeper was in vogue the role of the number 10 was completely different. If you had a number 9 like Wright, Hateley, Hartson, Sandy Clark, Heskey, Gullit, Sharpe etc you more than likely had a number 10 like Coyne, McCoist, Larson, john robertson, owen, van basten or Lineker. The ten was more often than not your striker and much more of a goal hanger than a modern number 10 and the sweeper gave protection beyond your back 4 where these guys all wanted to pick up flick ons etc.

Now there is really only one up front and there are few going into an area where the sweeper would sweep. Even if he does go there there should be ample cover as it is still 2 v 1 at the back of a standard back 4. In reality every team still plays a sweeper but he is a front screener in the makalele role. He intercepts runners and picks up the 10 who now plays 10 yards behind rather than on the shoulder of his number 9.

In reality a 3-5-2 plays 2 sweepers one in front and one behind the back 4. The two players not really engaged in the game leave you short all over the pitch especially out wide where a modern 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 will counteract your wing backs coming forward and leave them double teamed and in trouble going back.

In summary it just doesn't work!!!!!

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