Jump to content
The Dark Blues
Sign in to follow this  
Gedee

Alcoholism From An A.A. Perspective.

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/Newcomers/About-Alcoholism

Not too surprisingly, the post around Ralph Milne has moved into the areas of the causes,symptoms and definition of alcoholism.

There's no definitive, definition, of alcoholism. Is it a disease, a mental illness, a genetic problem, or simply a lack of will power?

As a "recovering" alcoholic. A day at a time with 20 yrs+ since my last drink behind me, I am not sure the definition is the issue.

Personally, friends and relatives, (or even myself) could never understand why, with "will power" I had no control over alcohol at all.

Going to the AA, after trying and failing, with other professional bodies, was the answer for me. And I know worked for many others.

Alcoholism, or any kind of addiction (drugs, gambling etc) not only affects the participant, it can devastate those persons around.

The AA's "disease model" made sense to me. With no control over my drinking once started, it meant, don't take that first drink.

I don't think it is necessary to get too hung up on the definition....A person with diabetis will avoid sugar. Alcoholic, avoid alcohol.

There is no easy, quick, instant cure, for alcoholism (however it is defined) Some visit AA support groups once/twice a day for life.

( Not looking for any  praise, sympathy, criticism or abuse. Just trying to offer something from my personal (and AA's) perspective.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/Newcomers/About-Alcoholism

Not too surprisingly, the post around Ralph Milne has moved into the areas of the causes,symptoms and definition of alcoholism.

There's no definitive, definition, of alcoholism. Is it a disease, a mental illness, a genetic problem, or simply a lack of will power?

As a "recovering" alcoholic. A day at a time with 20 yrs+ since my last drink behind me, I am not sure the definition is the issue.

Personally, friends and relatives, (or even myself) could never understand why, with "will power" I had no control over alcohol at all.

Going to the AA, after trying and failing, with other professional bodies, was the answer for me. And I know worked for many others.

Alcoholism, or any kind of addiction (drugs, gambling etc) not only affects the participant, it can devastate those persons around.

The AA's "disease model" made sense to me. With no control over my drinking once started, it meant, don't take that first drink.

I don't think it is necessary to get too hung up on the definition....A person with diabetis will avoid sugar. Alcoholic, avoid alcohol.

There is no easy, quick, instant cure, for alcoholism (however it is defined) Some visit AA support groups once/twice a day for life.

( Not looking for any  praise, sympathy, criticism or abuse. Just trying to offer something from my personal (and AA's) perspective.

You are 100% right Gedee. There is no quick cure and no two people are the same. My Father used to attend AA meetings regularly. The thing is he would go to the Pub afterwards. I never understood that. He was in rehab 3 times. The last time he lasted 2 weeks and signed himself out without telling anyone. He said he knew he could'nt beat it even though it would cost him his life. He was dead 3 months later. Was it an illness? If not an illness then what? I dont know. He did'nt know. But the urge to drink alcohol was a lot stronger than him, unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/Newcomers/About-Alcoholism

Not too surprisingly, the post around Ralph Milne has moved into the areas of the causes,symptoms and definition of alcoholism.

There's no definitive, definition, of alcoholism. Is it a disease, a mental illness, a genetic problem, or simply a lack of will power?

As a "recovering" alcoholic. A day at a time with 20 yrs+ since my last drink behind me, I am not sure the definition is the issue.

Personally, friends and relatives, (or even myself) could never understand why, with "will power" I had no control over alcohol at all.

Going to the AA, after trying and failing, with other professional bodies, was the answer for me. And I know worked for many others.

Alcoholism, or any kind of addiction (drugs, gambling etc) not only affects the participant, it can devastate those persons around.

The AA's "disease model" made sense to me. With no control over my drinking once started, it meant, don't take that first drink.

I don't think it is necessary to get too hung up on the definition....A person with diabetis will avoid sugar. Alcoholic, avoid alcohol.

There is no easy, quick, instant cure, for alcoholism (however it is defined) Some visit AA support groups once/twice a day for life.

( Not looking for any  praise, sympathy, criticism or abuse. Just trying to offer something from my personal (and AA's) perspective.

Good post Gedee. If AA worked for you then that's what matters.
 
What I will say about AA is that they have a 5-10% success rate and the other 90-95% of folk are left without a solution. Rehab/the 12-step program just doesn't work for most people. Given the scale of the problem, I think the NHS needs to be offering better alternatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/Newcomers/About-Alcoholism

Not too surprisingly, the post around Ralph Milne has moved into the areas of the causes,symptoms and definition of alcoholism.

There's no definitive, definition, of alcoholism. Is it a disease, a mental illness, a genetic problem, or simply a lack of will power?

As a "recovering" alcoholic. A day at a time with 20 yrs+ since my last drink behind me, I am not sure the definition is the issue.

Personally, friends and relatives, (or even myself) could never understand why, with "will power" I had no control over alcohol at all.

Going to the AA, after trying and failing, with other professional bodies, was the answer for me. And I know worked for many others.

Alcoholism, or any kind of addiction (drugs, gambling etc) not only affects the participant, it can devastate those persons around.

The AA's "disease model" made sense to me. With no control over my drinking once started, it meant, don't take that first drink.

I don't think it is necessary to get too hung up on the definition....A person with diabetis will avoid sugar. Alcoholic, avoid alcohol.

There is no easy, quick, instant cure, for alcoholism (however it is defined) Some visit AA support groups once/twice a day for life.

( Not looking for any  praise, sympathy, criticism or abuse. Just trying to offer something from my personal (and AA's) perspective.

You are 100% right Gedee. There is no quick cure and no two people are the same. My Father used to attend AA meetings regularly. The thing is he would go to the Pub afterwards. I never understood that. He was in rehab 3 times. The last time he lasted 2 weeks and signed himself out without telling anyone. He said he knew he could'nt beat it even though it would cost him his life. He was dead 3 months later. Was it an illness? If not an illness then what? I dont know. He did'nt know. But the urge to drink alcohol was a lot stronger than him, unfortunately.

Sorry to hear that skull' .....

Not a good ending for him, or the family. You will have a personal, understanding, of the devastating, painful, effect of his alcoholism had on others.

The point you make, "no two people are the same" is true. Better, when/where possible, not to be too judgemental. Though that's not always easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good post Gedee. If AA worked for you then that's what matters.
 
What I will say about AA is that they have a 5-10% success rate and the other 90-95% of folk are left without a solution. Rehab/the 12-step program just doesn't work for most people. Given the scale of the problem, I think the NHS needs to be offering better alternatives.

Cobra thank you for your comment.......Regarding your own post, may I ask where you found this 5-10 % ?

The reference I found was .....

"Dr. Lance Dodes is the most recent to wade into this debate in a new book, The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry. Dodes combed through more than 50 studies and found that the success rate for Alcoholics Anonymous is between 5 and 10 per cent, which he calls one of the worst in all of medicine" ..... is this the one you were referring to ?

I neither agree nor disagree with his findings. But like most people (and I am sure yourself) I am always sceptical of the claims of the figures and statistics, produced from scientific/academic/personal, research.

Part of the reason the AA worked for me was I was amongst people who had actual personal, experience of alcohol addiction, and the direct tragic effect, it had/was having, on themselves, and family, and friends. The "Greater Power)  referred to, does not have to be ***, it can be simply, the strength of the group.

(And as an aside, I am not endeared with people who are so rigid in their views, that they will never consider an alternative viewpoint ..... I am not totally sure why I said that Cobra, it is not a reference to yourself in any way)

On  a lighter note (for the benefit o' Joe and his post "Doad vs Dode") .... he at least got his name right, even if it was in the context of surname :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear that skull' .....

Not a good ending for him, or the family. You will have a personal, understanding, of the devastating, painful, effect of his alcoholism had on others.

The point you make, "no two people are the same" is true. Better, when/where possible, not to be too judgemental. Though that's not always easy.

I cant, no I wont, judge any addiction, because I dont understand why a man can choose alcohol over his family, knowing it was going to kill him. But, I never had to live a day in his shoes and I do not know exactly what he was going through. He tried to tell me near the end but I just never got it. I guess you have to experience it for it to make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cobra thank you for your comment.......Regarding your own post, may I ask where you found this 5-10 % ?

The reference I found was .....

"Dr. Lance Dodes is the most recent to wade into this debate in a new book, The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry. Dodes combed through more than 50 studies and found that the success rate for Alcoholics Anonymous is between 5 and 10 per cent, which he calls one of the worst in all of medicine" ..... is this the one you were referring to ?

I neither agree nor disagree with his findings. But like most people (and I am sure yourself) I am always sceptical of the claims of the figures and statistics, produced from scientific/academic/personal, research.

Part of the reason the AA worked for me was I was amongst people who had actual personal, experience of alcohol addiction, and the direct tragic effect, it had/was having, on themselves, and family, and friends. The "Greater Power)  referred to, does not have to be ***, it can be simply, the strength of the group.

(And as an aside, I am not endeared with people who are so rigid in their views, that they will never consider an alternative viewpoint ..... I am not totally sure why I said that Cobra, it is not a reference to yourself in any way)

On  a lighter note (for the benefit o' Joe and his post "Doad vs Dode") .... he at least got his name right, even if it was in the context of surname :)

Thanks for the post Gedee.

I've seen a number of figures highlighting the 5-10% success rate. Like you say, stats can be used to fit a particular agenda so I'll leave that be.

If you think I'm unwilling to consider an alternative viewpoint that's just not true. If an alcoholic asked me for advice I'd suggest giving the AA a chance.

The trouble is, and the reason I'm willing to annoy people by speaking out on the issue, is that AA blames the individual rather than the treatment when the treatment fails to work for an individual.

Ordinarily when a medical treatment doesn't work, the treatment is blamed but with the AA, the individual is blamed. This to me isn't right.

If 90% of people (or whatever the true figure is) fail to respond to AA, then AA is the issue, not the individuals involved. I'm not interested in attacking AA or the rehab system. I'm just saying the individuals who've not had success are not to blame. 

I don't actually have a solution. I'm just saying the status quo for dealing with the problem is imperfect and those affected should look at alternatives rather than assuming that AA/NHS/private rehab are the only ways to confront it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cobra in my post I tried to make clear, I was not pointing the finger at you ......

From my post ...... " (And as an aside, I am not endeared with people who are so rigid in their views, that they will never consider an alternative viewpoint ..... I am not totally sure why I said that Cobra, it is not a reference to yourself in any way) " 

Note the last few words there please. In my opinion you are amongst the most respectful, considered, politest, posters on TDB Forum. As your response shows.

I agree with much of what you say in your response Cobra. Maybe now I realise why I said in my previous post "I am not endeared with people who are so rigid in their views, that they will not consider an alternative viewpoint"

Subconsciously I may well have been directing that statement at the AA, or at least at some of the members.

..... ( as weel as one or two DTB members ;) on some ither topics )

I will say one thing however if I may. Members of the AA have one one thing in common "Alcoholism"  

Their aim (imo) is to work together to keep theirselves and others from going back and taking that first drink.

And although that might be the common purpose of them all, the people who attend, like any society (and even oor forum) are made up of people that come from all walks of life. And an AA meeting (sorry, again like a forum) can sometimes be as good as the members who are in it.

I would say, the first time a person attends, can (sometimes) be scary. And if he/she decides to return a few times, it does not necessarily get any easier. I think some times on this basis, newcomers reach the (wrong) decision (imo) it is not for them, and never return. This is a great sadness. It needs honesty and committment.

Fellow alcoholics have of course a personal experience and understanding of alcoholism. And probably because of this, what they  they ask/hope for, from new members is firstly, some honesty, and secondly, to know/believe, there is a genuine desire and commitment to stop drinking. Good support is always available.

Honesty is the key. Based on, people with an "active" addiction, be it alcohol, drugs, gambling ....... are the biggest lying, deceitful bullshitters, around !!

But when (and if) we can overcome our addiction (day at a time)  We might go on to discover that with sobriety, we are reasonably, decent, honest people.

Just about as good, or as bad, as everyone else. When sanity returns. we can try once again to be a good father, husband, friend, person, we hoped to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have added this below simply to help define alcohol problems   Is AA for you?

Only you can decide whether you want to give AA a try or if you think it can help you.

We who are in AA came because we finally gave up trying to control our drinking. We still hated to admit that we could never drink safely. Then we heard from other AA members that we were sick. We found out that many people suffered from the same feelings of guilt, loneliness and hopelessness that we did. We found out that we had these feelings because we were sick with alcoholism.

We decided to try to face up to what alcohol had done to us. Here are some of the questions we tried to answer honestly. See how you do. Remember, there is no disgrace in facing up to the fact that you have a problem.

Answer YES or NO to the following questions

  1. Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?

    Most of us in AA made all kinds of promises to ourselves and to our families. We could not keep them. Then we came to AA and AA said: "Just try not to drink today." (If you do not drink today, you cannot get drunk today.)

  2. Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?

    In AA we do not tell anyone to do anything. We just talk about our own drinking, the trouble we got into, and how we stopped. We will be glad to help you, if you want us to.

  3. Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?

    We tried all kinds of ways. We made our drinks weak. Or just drank beer. Or we did not drink spirits. Or only drank on weekends. You name it, we tried it. But if we drank anything with alcohol in it, we usually got drunk eventually.

  4. Have you had to have a drink in the morning during the past year?

    Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking socially.

  5. Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?

    At one time or another, most of us have wondered why we were not like most people, who really can take it or leave it.

  6. Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?

    Be honest! Doctors say that if you have a problem with alcohol and keep on drinking, it will get worse - never better. Eventually, you will die, or end up in an institution for the rest of your life. The only hope is to stop drinking.

  7. Has your drinking caused trouble at home?

    Before we came into AA, most of us said that it was the people or problems at home that made us drink. We could not see that our drinking just made everything worse. It never solved problems anywhere.

  8. Do you ever try to get 'extra' drinks at a party because you do not get enough?

    Most of us used to have a 'few' before we started out if we thought it was going to be that kind of party. If drinks were not served fast enough, we would go some place else to get more.

  9. Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don't mean to?

    Many of us kidded ourselves into thinking that we drank because we wanted to. After we came to AA, we found out that once we started to drink, we couldn't stop.

  10. Have you missed days off work because of drinking?

    Many of us admit now that we called in sick lots of times when the truth was that we were hung over or on a drunk.

  11. Do you have blackouts?

    A blackout is when there are drinking hours or days we cannot remember. When we came into AA, we found out that this is a pretty sure sign of alcoholic drinking.

  12. Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?

    Many of us started to drink because drinking made life seem better, at least for a while. By the time we got into AA, we felt trapped. We were drinking to live and living to drink. We were sick and tired of being sick and tired.

What's your score?

Did you answer YES four times or more? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol. Why do we say this? Because thousands of people in AA have said so for many years. They found out the truth about themselves - the hard way.

Again, only you can decide whether you think AA is for you. Try to keep an open mind on the subject. If the answer is YES, we will be glad to show you how we stopped drinking ourselves. Just call us.

AA does not promise to solve your problems. But we can show you how we are learning to live without booze one day at a time. We stay away from that first drink. If there is no first one, there cannot be a tenth one. When we got rid of booze, we found that life became much more manageable.

NOTE ......If anyone wants to close this topic, I will not be offended in any way at all.

I understand this is a football forum and this topic may not be suitable for discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NOTE ......If anyone wants to close this topic, I will not be offended in any way at all.

I understand this is a football forum and this topic may not be suitable for discussion.

I can't add anything to the actual conversation as drinking is not a thing I have ever really been involved with (personally).

That said, part of the reason for that is that I have watched others fall down the route described above, and vowed to stay away from it as best I could.

I'm only really posting to say that if THIS topic is closed/locked because of its content, then I think it would be a dis-service to our members.

As the OT shows, drink and football still go hand in hand - and we are ostensibly a 'football' forum. By definition, (and statistically speaking) we are more likely to have people struggling with alcohol problems than most other genres of forum. (Although this problem can hit anywhere!)

If we can't help to try and alleviate the pressures which some of our members may be under... what use are we?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't add anything to the actual conversation as drinking is not a thing I have ever really been involved with (personally).

That said, part of the reason for that is that I have watched others fall down the route described above, and vowed to stay away from it as best I could.

I'm only really posting to say that if THIS topic is closed/locked because of its content, then I think it would be a dis-service to our members.

As the OT shows, drink and football still go hand in hand - and we are ostensibly a 'football' forum. By definition, (and statistically speaking) we are more likely to have people struggling with alcohol problems than most other genres of forum. (Although this problem can hit anywhere!)

If we can't help to try and alleviate the pressures which some of our members may be under... what use are we?

Thank you Joe. Others may feel differently ....

And of course if that is the case, as already said, I would not be offended at all if any member wished it to be removed.

That said, your short response above does (imo) give justification for it remaining on this forum. (for at least a wee while)

The additional Q&A post was an added afterthought. My responses at the time, convinced me I had an alcohol problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Joe. Others may feel differently ....

And of course if that is the case, as already said, I would not be offended at all if any member wished it to be removed.

That said, your short response above does (imo) give justification for it remaining on this forum. (for at least a wee while)

The additional Q&A post was an added afterthought. My responses at the time, convinced me I had an alcohol problem.

Gedee, if some people don't like the thread, they don't have to read it. You're not breaking any of the 'rules', so I hope it rolls on. Its a topic that I dare say quite a few of us are interested in, as Joe says, bevvy and football go hand in hand for a lot. I'm rather fond of the falling over juice myself and can answer yes to a couple of your AA questions, I'm not concerned at the moment but who knows how these things can go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very seldom drink these days, think had half a can of cider on hogmanay. Been like that for past four years or so. Just got bored with drinking and pubs in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gedee, if some people don't like the thread, they don't have to read it. You're not breaking any of the 'rules', so I hope it rolls on. Its a topic that I dare say quite a few of us are interested in, as Joe says, bevvy and football go hand in hand for a lot. I'm rather fond of the falling over juice myself and can answer yes to a couple of your AA questions, I'm not concerned at the moment but who knows how these things can go.

Hi chomp,like yourself,I like the stuff but will say that the championship weekend with the player of the year doo,I had a damn good weekend to myself ...went into my work on the Monday feeling a bit washed out. I decided to lay off it for a while....was only for a couple of weeks I thought but ended up being 372 days. The longer it went on it became a challenge in myself to see if I could manage a year.. I wasn't trying to prove a point or anything but realised I was breaking a habit I'd done since I was 13 years old....54 now. Everyone kept saying well done!!! Which was strange as I didn't have a problem. I was able to go out in company having a laugh ,days at the fitba while everyone was getting p*ssed ,me being sober...initially it was hard as you are the only one drinking coke ,fitba is a drinking environment no doubt about that ..not sure how well I've put my points/ views over here but knowing the feeling of guilt with myself when I had my first beer again,I can only imagine what guys who do have a problem go through when they relapse....ps was able to save a fair wad of cash to put new double glazing in and new carpet in the living room as well....Mrs janny likes!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi chomp,like yourself,I like the stuff but will say that the championship weekend with the player of the year doo,I had a damn good weekend to myself ...went into my work on the Monday feeling a bit washed out. I decided to lay off it for a while....was only for a couple of weeks I thought but ended up being 372 days. The longer it went on it became a challenge in myself to see if I could manage a year.. I wasn't trying to prove a point or anything but realised I was breaking a habit I'd done since I was 13 years old....54 now. Everyone kept saying well done!!! Which was strange as I didn't have a problem. I was able to go out in company having a laugh ,days at the fitba while everyone was getting p*ssed ,me being sober...initially it was hard as you are the only one drinking coke ,fitba is a drinking environment no doubt about that ..not sure how well I've put my points/ views over here but knowing the feeling of guilt with myself when I had my first beer again,I can only imagine what guys who do have a problem go through when they relapse....ps was able to save a fair wad of cash to put new double glazing in and new carpet in the living room as well....Mrs janny likes!!!

Slightly interupting your post Janny, which eh'm aware,mair directed at chomp.

Basically jist tae say hello tae ye again. and hope you and Mrs Janny are weel.

Although I'll say, you had no reason to feel any guilt friend. Guid bit o' self control.

Thoct eh wid try an early night. Didnae work tho. 3 'oors sleep. Up again, 2.30 am

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi chomp,like yourself,I like the stuff but will say that the championship weekend with the player of the year doo,I had a damn good weekend to myself ...went into my work on the Monday feeling a bit washed out. I decided to lay off it for a while....was only for a couple of weeks I thought but ended up being 372 days. The longer it went on it became a challenge in myself to see if I could manage a year.. I wasn't trying to prove a point or anything but realised I was breaking a habit I'd done since I was 13 years old....54 now. Everyone kept saying well done!!! Which was strange as I didn't have a problem. I was able to go out in company having a laugh ,days at the fitba while everyone was getting p*ssed ,me being sober...initially it was hard as you are the only one drinking coke ,fitba is a drinking environment no doubt about that ..not sure how well I've put my points/ views over here but knowing the feeling of guilt with myself when I had my first beer again,I can only imagine what guys who do have a problem go through when they relapse....ps was able to save a fair wad of cash to put new double glazing in and new carpet in the living room as well....Mrs janny likes!!!

I'd be a good bit better off if I didn't drink, I don't go to the pub as much but I drink in the house pretty much every night, it still adds up. Its certainly not a cheap hobby the bevvying.  :mad:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fae yir post chomp .... "but I drink in the house pretty much every night"

Well at least you have some excuse tae fa' back on ....

Eh've nae excuse for awe the keech eh write :D

"But you tak care now friend" :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slightly interupting your post Janny, which eh'm aware,mair directed at chomp.

Basically jist tae say hello tae ye again. and hope you and Mrs Janny are weel.

Although I'll say, you had no reason to feel any guilt friend. Guid bit o' self control.

Thoct eh wid try an early night. Didnae work tho. 3 'oors sleep. Up again, 2.30 am

thanks Gedee,hope things are good with you also.Not posted for a wee while as BT were dragging their heels sorting my phone out. Sorry to hear about not having good sleepies, I would try a cheeky wee Night Nurse....might keep it quiet from Mrs Gedee though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fae yir post Janny ...... "I would try a cheeky wee Night Nurse....might keep it quiet from Mrs Gedee though"

                                    I will no say exacty whar I am, but wi the age I am, eh cannae be sae choosy now.

                                   And I now understand why the sheep become mair attractive the  further north ye go.

                                   Eh'd get awa wi smuggling ain intae bed (Margaret's a heavy sleeper) But at my age

                                  they tak some catching. To be honest, I like tae try to build up a relationship first :wub:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.