Hartley Oot!

[EastLothianBlue]

2 hours ago, DFC1974 said:

Whilst I don't see how last night result now makes a top six finish unlikely, I completely agree that the Nelms interview did nothing to suggest he was committed to his management team.

In fact, i would almost go as far as to believe that he deliberately avoided the opportunity to refer to the efforts of his manager (using the term 'staff from the footballing side of things 'as a broad brush referral) whilst lavishing praise on almost everyone else. 

Back to your point Cobra...it could be that PH's future has already been decided before last night. Throw in McPake's mysterious lengthy contract extension and imaginatations could be excused for working overtime!!

I'm certainly not disagreeing but I know plenty managers, including myself, who never single out individuals in a team, and usually never the people who manage sectors etc when doing 'public' announcements. This is to make everyone feel a critical part of the team, and not to lavish praise solely on the 'top people'.

when I watched the interview I thought that was Nelms approach and gave him credit or for it. 

Funny how different folk see different thing 

[Cobra]

4 minutes ago, EastLothianBlue said:

I'm certainly not disagreeing but I know plenty managers, including myself, who never single out individuals in a team, and usually never the people who manage sectors etc when doing 'public' announcements. This is to make everyone feel a critical part of the team, and not to lavish praise solely on the 'top people'.

when I watched the interview I thought that was Nelms approach and gave him credit or for it. 

Funny how different folk see different thing 

Nelms doesn't do that many interviews but I seem to recall him lavishing praise on Hartley previously so to not mention him on this occasion is a little surprising. It could be something or nothing.

[Bubster]

2 hours ago, blythswood said:

He's been taking the corners and free kicks, so that is a skewed statistic. You could also argue that in many games his delivery from set pieces has been poor. In open play he's struggled and that's the reason he's on the bench. 

For what it's worth, I think he could be a decent player but we have too many similar players in that position all of a similar standard. It's an unbalanced squad, and that has been a feature of Hartley's reign. 

It's laughable to say his statistics are skewed - they are factual. Without the assists of Tom Hateley we'd be far worse off than we are now. He's also been a decent player in our midfield and is a rare calm presence on the ball.

I get it, like Hartley you've made your mind up on Hateley, more power to you. However if every player you've written off to soon wasn't playing we'd need 6 or 7 more players to field an XI

[Cobra]

Hateley's arguably the best player in the squad for creating chances whether it's from dead ball situations or open play. His free-kick won the game v Hearts at Dens and then he played a big part of two of the goals in the 3-0 win over St Johnstone.

I would have brought him on at half-time last night as he's capable of a great delivery that even the most organised defence will struggle to deal with. McGowan, Vincent and O'Hara could have ran around Dens until midnight and not created a clear cut chance against that stubborn Partick team.

[cookie]

4 hours ago, Cobra said:

Being brutally honest I'm not confident we'll win any of the games before the split. I wouldn't be surprised with the following...

St Johnstone (A) 1
Celtic (H) 0
Aberdeen (A) 0
County (A) 1
Hearts (A) 1
Hamilton (H) 1

Partick on current form could easily claim four wins putting them out of sight.

Inverness (H) 3
Killie (A) 3
County (H) 3
Celtic (H) 0
Motherwell (H) 3
Rangers (A) 0

County's fixtures are quite favourable as well though so they do have a chance of nicking that sixth place but they'd probably have to beat Partick at Firhill.

It is a good analysis but it doesn't take into account the total capitulation of the freefalling farmers and Fred Cathros Army.

[TheDarkBlues]

17 minutes ago, Cobra said:

Hateley's arguably the best player in the squad for creating chances whether it's from dead ball situations or open play. His free-kick won the game v Hearts at Dens and then he played a big part of two of the goals in the 3-0 win over St Johnstone.

I would have brought him on at half-time last night as he's capable of a great delivery that even the most organised defence will struggle to deal with. McGowan, Vincent and O'Hara could have ran around Dens until midnight and not created a clear cut chance against that stubborn Partick team.

I would have had Nick Ross on before Hateley last night, a defensive midfielder wasn't what we needed last night.

[chomp my root]

3 minutes ago, cookie said:

It is a good analysis but it doesn't take into account the total capitulation of the freefalling farmers and Fred Cathros Army.

and another team above us aren't looking too great either. Probably doesn't do us much favours some of the teams further up the table are all going to rat shit but we need to get our act together. We're all cutting each others throats at the moment. If you were an outsider looking in its probably quite an exciting league, unfortunately we're not. 

[TheDarkBlues]

34 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

and another team above us aren't looking too great either. Probably doesn't do us much favours some of the teams further up the table are all going to rat shit but we need to get our act together. We're all cutting each others throats at the moment. If you were an outsider looking in its probably quite an exciting league, unfortunately we're not. 

Right now I will bite your hand off for 10th place and staying in this league.

Whatever happens after that, I don't know. All I know is this, since FPS and Paul Hartley took over we have had our best 3 years this club have had in nearly 40 years. Even the Bonetti years with all those superstars didn't do that much better (Yes there was exciting football):

• 1999: 5th Place (10 team league)
• 2000: 7th Place
• 2001: 9th place
• 2002: 6th Place
• 2003: 7th Place
• 2004: 12th Place

Some could argue that the league was tougher at that time, but we had a much better calibre of players at the club back then and they would walk straight into any team in this league, Celtic and Rangers included.

From what I read into with the John Nelms interview this week was that they had given Paul Hartley a budget that the believe should get them in the top 6 for the last 3 years running and we have only managed that once, then I would assume in their eyes, that is a failure. The board have now to make a big decision come the end of the season whether to stick or flip and seek a manager than they believe can do the job with the budget they have laid out.

Any business that have failed to reach their target two years running could be considered a failure by some and by the looks of it, these guys don't do their business on sentiment. One thing is sure, there will be many questions asked after the split and we are not in the top six. Not by the fans, but by the board.

[Spiritof62]

Hartley has done a reasonable job.

He is not that popular with the fans due to:-

a. The NY Derby hiding.

b. The style of football for most of his tenure has been bloody awful.

c. His repeated failure to get the guys fired up for the critical matches.

Imo apart from Rogers, McInnes and Wright, the management pool in Scotland at the moment is pretty short of talent, so a change seems pretty pointless.

 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

5 minutes ago, Spiritof62 said:

Hartley has done a reasonable job.

He is not that popular with the fans due to:-

a. The NY Derby hiding.

b. The style of football for most of his tenure has been bloody awful.

c. His repeated failure to get the guys fired up for the critical matches.

Imo apart from Rogers, McInnes and Wright, the management pool in Scotland at the moment is pretty short of talent, so a change seems pretty pointless.

 

Archibald at Partick probably deserves a bit of credit for being a decent manager/coach. I'd doubt he's working with a big budget but has done well with what he's got imo.

[cookie]

I hope the board know that what they have is a young manager with real potential and I hope they are patient.  Changing managers too quickly and too often has been disastrous for many clubs.  Compare and contrast  the recent fortunes of Aberdeen, St Johnstone, and Partick Thistle with The Dabs, Hibs and St Mirren.   Nor is there much evidence that changing managers at all will bring any success.  But for notable examples such as Celtic this season  we have the likes of Warburton, McGhee, Clark, Cathro and Foran all of whom have failed or are failing. I think what I am trying to say is that there is a real shortage of talented managers who would make themselves available to Dundee and who would be assured of doing a better job than PH.    Whenever a vacancy occurs, and that is often enough, the press produce a list of the usual suspects, most of whom are serial failures. On the other hand there would be ever so many clubs who would employ Hartley in a heartbeat.

[EastLothianBlue]

Just now, cookie said:

I hope the board know that what they have is a young manager with real potential and I hope they are patient.  Changing managers too quickly and too often has been disastrous for many clubs.  Compare and contrast  the recent fortunes of Aberdeen, St Johnstone, and Partick Thistle with The Dabs, Hibs and St Mirren.   Nor is there much evidence that changing managers at all will bring any success.  But for notable examples such as Celtic this season  we have the likes of Warburton, McGhee, Clark, Cathro and Foran all of whom have failed or are failing. I think what I am trying to say is that there is a real shortage of talented managers who would make themselves available to Dundee and who would be assured of doing a better job than PH.    Whenever a vacancy occurs, and that is often enough, the press produce a list of the usual suspects, most of whom are serial failures. On the other hand there would be ever so many clubs who would employ Hartley in a heartbeat.

This. I also don't buy the 'we had budget to finish Top Six': Nelms as MD is ultimately responsible for the delivery of the Dundee FC Business Plan and profit and loss and balance sheet. Hartley plays a role as an employee. I think that not finishing Top Six last year was offset by selling players. So for all we know Nelms and Hartley might be ahead of Business Plan.