Danny Williams

[TC86]

20 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

and is Vincent still in your bad books too ? 

Say all of your post is true, its not like a puppy from the Cat and Dog home, you can't just take him back if you change your mind. If he's as bad as you think then there will be no teams that would have him at our level so we'd have to toss in some cash to shift him on, maybe PH will in the summer, who knows but you seem desperate for him to go now when we're not even in a transfer window. Baffling. 

Guess you just need someone to have a go at.

Firstly I think youll find I said  we should try offload him ASAP and also mentioned end of the season so not really baffling at all .

Its nothing like a cat and dogs home but  a transfer window opens before start of next season so if we find someone willing to have him and if we can get him to take a pay off that would suit all concerned we CAN actually move him on ... AGAIN nothing new here it happens all the time.

As for Vincent I would still try move him on also .

YES he's offering plenty effort but he doesn't have enough quality and I'm sorry if that's a horrible thing to say but as far as I'm concerned the ability to run around and look busy doesn't a footballer make .

AGAIN against Celtic last week Vincent put in plenty effort . something ill never accuse him of lacking in , without actually contributing much . He follows the ball and chases down the man in possession to an extent without ever getting close enough to put in a challenge  .

He gets dragged out of position and teams paly triangles around him and we lose our shape as demestarted against ICT (Tansey & draper ) , Partick ( Erskine &Osman), St Johnstone ( Paton & Swanson ), Celtic ( Armstrong & Brown ) etc etc etc . We look unbalanced in the midfield with Vincent in there for me .

He doesn't get on the ball , he doesn't create . his passing isn't great , he rarely gets close enough to make a tackle despite running to close it down , he doesn't link the play front to back and he doesn't score goals .. ALL or at least some of these are a must for a central midfielder and we are out played in that area every week due to the unbalance we have in that area.

The difference when Nick rioss came off the bench last week was plain to see . He went looking for it and We then  actually manged to get on the ball and get them thinking .

Instead of us chasing the ball we actually retained possession and actually got Celtic to do some chasing and we were a far better looking more balanced signed as a result

Edited 25 March 2017 by DBDU

[chomp my root]

You and I have very different views but I do agree that Ross has a lot to offer. 

I must be watching a different Vincent, the one I watch has put in quite a few good shifts for us recently. As for Williams, I don't have strong views on him, I'd hoped for more from him but I'm not going to call for his head, PH hasn't been shy about moving folk on if he thinks its for the best so I'll wait and see what happens. I don't think he's been that awful, more 'meh'.

For someone who claims that they're not quick to judge you seem quite judgey, did you want Kevin Holt away last year ?

[Reverend Lovejoy]

9 minutes ago, DBDU said:

Firstly I think youll find I said  we should try offload him ASAP and also mentioned end of the season so not really baffling at all .

Its nothing like a cat and dogs home but  a transfer window opens before start of next season so if we find someone willing to have him and if we can get him to take a pay off that would suit all concerned we CAN actually move him on ... AGAIN nothing new here it happens all the time.

As for Vincent I would still try move him on also .

YES he's offering plenty effort but he doesn't have enough quality and I'm sorry if that's a horrible thing to say but as far as I'm concerned the ability to run around and look busy doesn't a footballer make .

AGAIN against Celtic last week Vincent put in plenty effort . something ill never accuse him of lacking in , without actually contributing much . He follows the ball and chases down the man in possession to an extent without ever getting close enough to put in a challenge  .

He gets dragged out of position and teams paly triangles around him and we lose our shape as demestarted against ICT (Tansey & draper ) , Partick ( Erskine &Osman), St Johnstone ( Paton & Swanson ), Celtic ( Armstrong & Brown ) etc etc etc . We look unbalanced in the midfield with Vincent in there for me .

He doesn't get on the ball , he doesn't create . his passing isn't great , he rarely gets close enough to make a tackle despite running to close it down , he doesn't link the play front to back and he doesn't score goals .. ALL or at least some of these are a must for a central midfielder and we are out played in that area every week due to the unbalance we have in that area.

The difference when Nick rioss came off the bench last week was plain to see . He went looking for it and We then  actually manged to get on the ball and get them thinking .

Instead of us chasing the ball we actually retained possession and actually got Celtic to do some chasing and we were a far better looking more balanced signed as a result

The work that the likes of Vincent put in allowed us to introduce more offensive players later in the game. If we'd started the game with the team we finish it with I fear Celtic would've given us a tanking. As it was we grabbed a goal back and made things look respectable and we also missed a sitter that could've won us a point. The game plan almost worked.

[TC86]

46 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

You and I have very different views but I do agree that Ross has a lot to offer. 

I must be watching a different Vincent, the one I watch has put in quite a few good shifts for us recently. As for Williams, I don't have strong views on him, I'd hoped for more from him but I'm not going to call for his head, PH hasn't been shy about moving folk on if he thinks its for the best so I'll wait and see what happens. I don't think he's been that awful, more 'meh'.

For someone who claims that they're not quick to judge you seem quite judgey, did you want Kevin Holt away last year ?

I am judging after giving both players time to show us what they have to offer . I wont lie when I first seen them both I waa scratching my head asking what PH seen in them but I gave them both time to bed in . We are at the business end of the season now and both guys have had plenty game time .

I  don't doubt he puts in a shift but we don't retain possession when hes playing and our midfield is unbalanced . We are  being out played almost every week and for me Vincent and Gowser just don't compliment each other in that area . Hes a trier but if we are wanting to progress we need quality in that area  not huffrers & puffers . 

I actually always thought Holt would come good as I seen enough in his performances to think he had the basics to step up .. I don't see it with the Inverness two I'm afraid to say and think this is about their level !

I HOPE IM WRONG !!

43 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

The work that the likes of Vincent put in allowed us to introduce more offensive players later in the game. If we'd started the game with the team we finish it with I fear Celtic would've given us a tanking. As it was we grabbed a goal back and made things look respectable and we also missed a sitter that could've won us a point. The game plan almost worked.

Im sorry but our midfield has been outplayed against almost every team we have faced this season .

Even though we beat ICT at Dens their midfield were far superior to ours while  St Johnstone , Thistle and Celtic have all bossed us in recent weeks as prime examples.

In the cases of  thistle and the saints its NOT because they have any superstars  but because they have balance and guys who can get on the ball  are comfortable in possession who retain possession and who compliment each other  .

If you don't keep your shape and more importantly keep the BALL you find yourself chasing it and you wont win football matches im afraid.

When Vincent plays we are chasing and harrying without getting the opposition to do the same because he doesn't keep the ball and he follows the ball and we look unbalanced !

After watching pre season and seeing our new signings in actions I'm pretty sure there was a poll on here asking where we would finish up .

If I remember rightly I said we looked a poorer side and would finish 8th or 9th ,that we would be a team of battlers as opposed to seeing much quality .

I thought we would stay up but it would be a SH#T Fight and I still think we will battle our way to safety this season but my opinion on the quality of our side and the quality of our signings we made last summer  hasn't changed I'm affraid.

 

We should have enough to stay up this season but If we don't sign proper quality next season particularly in the midfield with Hibs coming up I fear we will be in for a real relegation battle !

 

Edited 25 March 2017 by DBDU

[Attilio]

I get where both DBDU and Chomp are coming from on this discussion and tbh it seems to me that both have made valid points regarding Williams & Vincent.

From my own point of view, Vincent has had plenty chances now to show what he can do. He has shown up well at times, in some games but at other times, in most of the games I have seen him tbh, he has been virtually anonymous.  As DBDU has said, he can certainly run about the pitch and shadow players but without making enough tackles or challenges that are needed.  Maybe that is not part of his game and he's being asked to do things that are alien to him?  A midfield player? Really??  The bottom line for me is that Vincent hasn't yet shown he has enough to influence a game to any extent.

Williams imo hasn't really had a run to prove his worth.  PH seemed to decide early on that he was a good way down the pecking order for a starting spot.  On the other hand, the first game of the season apart, his contributions when he has appeared have been underwhelming to say the least.  I don't think he could hold down a position other that left mid or at a push, left back.  He is a better left mid imo than CW at this time.  CW is a better player without a doubt but not in the position he is being used.

 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

55 minutes ago, DBDU said:

After watching pre season and seeing our new signings in actions I'm pretty sure there was a poll on here asking where we would finish up .

If I remember rightly I said we looked a poorer side and would finish 8th or 9th

Yet you claim to give our players every chance?. You've judged the after PRE-SEASON!!!!!!!!!.

[TC86]

3 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Yet you claim to give our players every chance?. You've judged the after PRE-SEASON!!!!!!!!!.

My intial first impression wasn't good and I wasn't alone .

Plenty people were saying the very same thing but like myself also attaching the words.. " but its early days hopefully they come good " !

 

For me they haven't !

Edited 25 March 2017 by DBDU

[Reverend Lovejoy]

1 minute ago, DBDU said:

My intial first impression wasn't good and I wasn't alone .

Plenty people were saying the very same thing but like myself also attaching the words.. " but its early days hopefully they come good " !

 

For me they haven't !

I think you're being unrealistic. PH had every reason to believe that 2 players who were operating and performing well in the SPFL could come here and continue that. Most people were happy at the signing of these players on PCA's as they remembered them as decent players. For one reason or another they didn't hit the ground running and some people, like yourself, decided to give them the 'Kevin Holt' treatment. Basically, as you yourself have admitted, the were judged on first impressions and first impressions alone.

What chance did they really stand?.

 

[TC86]

Just now, Reverend Lovejoy said:

I think you're being unrealistic. PH had every reason to believe that 2 players who were operating and performing well in the SPFL could come here and continue that. Most people were happy at the signing of these players on PCA's as they remembered them as decent players. For one reason or another they didn't hit the ground running and some people, like yourself, decided to give them the 'Kevin Holt' treatment. Basically, as you yourself have admitted, the were judged on first impressions and first impressions alone.

What chance did they really stand?.

 

I will be honest mate I too was excited by their arrival because by all accounts as you keep stating at their last clubs they were decent players .. I not having a go at PH signing them at all if indeed he felt they would improve our side . The manager has got far more right than he has wrong in the transfer market but even the best managers sign guys they obviously rate but that doesn't work out !.

Please don't put words in my mouth , judge me in terms of getting on the players backs without  first  giving them a chance or edit things to suit your argument !

As I have always stated I gave both players time to settle and show what they could bring to the side .

EVERYONE has a first impression of players that's what seeing them for the first time does and in the case of Vincent and Williams they never looked up to much when I first seen them !

AGAIN as I said before that didn't mean I got on their backs or didn't give them a chance to prove me wrong . I NEVER boo the team or individual players !

I never rated Greg Stewart  when I first seen him playing up front for us either  . My first impression was the ball didn't stick to him when he was playing as a striker with his back to goal .

I said on more than one occasion I didn't think he would be good enough but would be happy to be proven wrong ... and How wrong I was because that's exactly what he did !

Williams and Vincent for me haven't justified their 3 year contracts and haven't been up to the standard we need to move forward .. I am STILL very happy for them to prove me wrong and if they plan on doing that anytime soon would be nice ! 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

8 minutes ago, DBDU said:

I will be honest mate I too was excited by their arrival because by all accounts as you keep stating at their last clubs they were decent players .. I not having a go at PH signing them at all if indeed he felt they would improve our side . The manager has got far more right than he has wrong in the transfer market but even the best managers sign guys they obviously rate but that doesn't work out !.

Please don't put words in my mouth , judge me in terms of getting on the players backs without  first  giving them a chance or edit things to suit your argument !

As I have always stated I gave both players time to settle and show what they could bring to the side .

EVERYONE has a first impression of players that's what seeing them for the first time does and in the case of Vincent and Williams they never looked up to much when I first seen them !

AGAIN as I said before that didn't mean I got on their backs or didn't give them a chance to prove me wrong . I NEVER boo the team or individual players !

I never rated Greg Stewart  when I first seen him playing up front for us either  . My first impression was the ball didn't stick to him when he was playing as a striker with his back to goal .

I said on more than one occasion I didn't think he would be good enough but would be happy to be proven wrong ... and How wrong I was because that's exactly what he did !

Williams and Vincent for me haven't justified their 3 year contracts and haven't been up to the standard we need to move forward .. I am STILL very happy for them to prove me wrong and if they plan on doing that anytime soon would be nice ! 

It's fairly clear that you've come on here looking for an argument mate because some people don't agree with you're viewpoint. I've no doubt there will be plenty who do agree with you though and that's why I've repeatedly said that it's all about opinions. We wont all agree but we do have to realise when to call it a day, we could go on all night and nobody really wants that.

 

[TC86]

15 hours ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

It's fairly clear that you've come on here looking for an argument mate because some people don't agree with you're viewpoint. I've no doubt there will be plenty who do agree with you though and that's why I've repeatedly said that it's all about opinions. We wont all agree but we do have to realise when to call it a day, we could go on all night and nobody really wants that.

 

Never said everyone has to agree with me mate .. its a forum at the end of the day I'm just giving my opinion on certain players who happen to fall short of what we should be looking for in my opinion .

I'm not the one accusing anyone of being a boo boy or of not giving players a chance just because I point out what to me are  some pretty obvious things and don't happen to believe every player we sign needs to be hailed a good player when to me they most certainly are not !

As you say lets agree to disagree and as Ive always said I hope Vincent and Williams kick on to prove me I'm wrong  !

Edited 26 March 2017 by DBDU