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The Whole Bain Situation


offshoredee

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4 minutes ago, Bubster said:

I'll ask a question to every person on this board - the only story I've seen in the press is that there was a "dressing room bust up" between McCann and Bain.

This is probably over simple and very hypothetical.

Put yourself in this position. You've gone into work, you have an easy day of production ahead where you are widely expected to receive a positive result and a bonus. The manager has rearranged some of the workers positions and changed some of the work instructions and as the day progresses it goes from bad to worse and the target is missed.

Everyone is called into a meeting where the manager starts chewing people out ovr the collective and potentially individual perforrmances, and some of the team start arguing amongst themselves as well. You suggest to the manager that perhaps his changes or set up were part or indeed the root cause of the problem, however in the heat of the moment having just been chewed out in front of your teammates you are shouting. He disagrees vociferously and a macho argument ensues with neither party backing down. You go home for the day.

You report back to work on Monday morning and are told you have been fined 2 weeks wages for your actions on the Saturday.

Is this a fair resolution?

I don't think anyone is really debating whether Bain should have been fined 2 weeks wages. The issue/debate for us as football fans is whether he should be frozen out the team.

To take your above example, yes I think it is a fair resolution that the manager tells you to stay away from the rest of the department until the matter is resolved. You can't have someone in the team who has issues with the manager. It then affects the whole department.

 

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50 minutes ago, Bubster said:

It's not all that matters though is it.

We have got lucky with Parrish having a decent start - are you telling me that if the team had dipped after Parrish came in then everyones opinion on this employment dispute would be different?

Parrish has nothing to do with this particular situation.

I didn't claim that Parrish was anything to do with the situation. However an unavoidable fact is that the teams performances have improved and he deserves to be starting just now. I don't think luck has anything to do with it either, we should have cover for every position otherwise the manager isn't doing his job.

Parrish may have been 2nd choice but he's taken his chance and done well. He was probably close to getting a start anyway as Bain's form was questionable. If the teams form had continued to be poor then the managers position would have been in question. 

This situation is regrettable but we're 2nd guessing what happened, I'm not really interested in who's to blame, the most important thing for me is we are now doing better than we were.

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2 hours ago, Bubster said:

I'll ask a question to every person on this board - the only story I've seen in the press is that there was a "dressing room bust up" between McCann and Bain.

This is probably over simple and very hypothetical.

Put yourself in this position. You've gone into work, you have an easy day of production ahead where you are widely expected to receive a positive result and a bonus. The manager has rearranged some of the workers positions and changed some of the work instructions and as the day progresses it goes from bad to worse and the target is missed.

Everyone is called into a meeting where the manager starts chewing people out ovr the collective and potentially individual perforrmances, and some of the team start arguing amongst themselves as well. You suggest to the manager that perhaps his changes or set up were part or indeed the root cause of the problem, however in the heat of the moment having just been chewed out in front of your teammates you are shouting. He disagrees vociferously and a macho argument ensues with neither party backing down. You go home for the day.

You report back to work on Monday morning and are told you have been fined 2 weeks wages for your actions on the Saturday.

Is this a fair resolution?

I guess the issue is that none of us knows with any certainty that the 'hypothetical' description above is roughly what happened, or not...and those unknown facts very much dictate how each of us would respond to your question at the end. We also don't know if whatever occurred was an isolated incident, or a repeat. The Club will have an HR policy on behaviour, and I'd expect/hope that's the process being followed. I'm less interested in 'fault', I guess....it's an emotive career, blow-ups happen often.

I agreed with one of your posts re management styles / personalities, but that was also something that had fairly mixed reactions.

So I guess I'm in the 'grey area', until (if) facts eventually appear....I was anticipating the SPFA might have said something by now, but there may be legal reasons why they can't. 

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not sure the ins and outs but what I do know is he’s a better keeper than parish .

 

im aware our form has been good since parish came in the side abd he’s only conceded a few goals but watching parish I think he’s slow to get down to low shots !

i think he could have did better at Easter road and again tonight against Aberdeen I think he’s got to get to that I’m afraid .

 

 I’m Not saying parish is a bad keeper and I’m right behind the guy and hope he does well at Dens but like or loath him Bain is a very good keeper who will be a big loss over the course of a season ! 

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8 minutes ago, DBDU said:

not sure the ins and outs but what I do know is he’s a better keeper than parish .

 

im aware our form has been good since parish came in the side abd he’s only conceded a few goals but watching parish I think he’s slow to get down to low shots !

i think he could have did better at Easter road and again tonight against Aberdeen I think he’s got to get to that I’m afraid .

 

 I’m Not saying parish is a bad keeper and I’m right behind the guy and hope he does well at Dens but like or loath him Bain is a very good keeper who will be a big loss over the course of a season ! 

Parish is better at coming for balls ans also getting off his line x

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Bain has often seemed slow to get down to shots to his left.....Parish maybe slow to get down to shots to his right...most keepers have a stronger & weaker side.

Parish took some high balls tonight that Bain would not have even thought of leaving the goal-line for.....I've no idea why, he seemed to develop this a couple of seasons ago, and a lot of us felt it was PH's instructions. Maybe it wasn't.

Whether Parish is better or worse.....Bain's 'gone', it seems. 

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11 hours ago, Bubster said:

I'm not trying to bring employment law into the debate HK. As far as I'm aware no decision has yet been made - balance of probabilities or no - and this seems a long time for an investigation to be dragging on.

I would be interested to see the judicial process being followed here as at the rate this progressed from alleged incident (again date and nature unknown) to being frozen out from the team seems rather quick for a full investigation to have taken place including right of appeal - then again this is a football club and we all know there are different rules in this employment sector (rightly or wrongly)

No-one outwith the club even knows the nature of the disciplinary incident at this stage - we've had a fall out, info leak, attitude issues, performance issues, assault yet you can sit saying on the balance of probabilities you think one party are probably right?

My understanding of balance of probabilities is that before a decision can be made both sides have to be heard and investigated, but no absolute proof needs to be provided - you've heard neither but have leapt to a conclusion on a wing and a prayer.

Bubster, i wasn't bringing Employment Law into the debate, i was saying that different people will use different tests to form an opinion - i prefer to use the same test as used in Employment Law - balance of probability. You seem to prefer the alternative beyond reasonable doubt - fair enough. Neither of us will be judge and jury so it matters not a f**k.

We do not need a juducial process, it's not a court case at this point.

As i said, I am entitled to form an opinion based on what i have read - this does not constitute forming an opinion on a wing and a prayer. A wing and a prayer would be forming an opinion based on nothing - that is not the case here.

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The dilemma the board faces now is that we have a player who was worth £1m plus a short time ago. Great reviews, good plaudits, and made the Scotland squad. He’ll be one of our highest earners. And now he’ll be leaving for free, or for a (low) five figure sum in January, which is now best case scenario. The manager should be backed and should have the last day, but this situation has cost Dundee FC a significant amount of money. Remember we’ve made a loss every year since FPS bought the shares. Tim Keyes is the only person who has the finances to plug that hole. I’d imagine he’s asked the relevant questions on why a player who had real value a short time ago is now not even sitting on our bench.

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4 minutes ago, Deetection said:

The dilemma the board faces now is that we have a player who was worth £1m plus a short time ago. Great reviews, good plaudits, and made the Scotland squad. He’ll be one of our highest earners. And now he’ll be leaving for free, or for a (low) five figure sum in January, which is now best case scenario. The manager should be backed and should have the last day, but this situation has cost Dundee FC a significant amount of money. Remember we’ve made a loss every year since FPS bought the shares. Tim Keyes is the only person who has the finances to plug that hole. I’d imagine he’s asked the relevant questions on why a player who had real value a short time ago is now not even sitting on our bench.

Well FPS should have sold him last summer then. Bain has no intention of signing a new contract therefore, if we need the money to plug losses like you say, we should have made him available for transfer.

Or do you think maybe we didn’t get any offers for him because he isn’t as good as he thinks he is?

Edit to say this is a player who pulled out of a Scotland Squad to go on holiday. This is a player who could have played in the infamous Schenk 6-2 Derby, if pushed, but was on the lash the night before declaring himself unfit to play the day before knowing Letheren was carrying an injury 

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