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Post-Split Fixtures


Cobra

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3 hours ago, BCram said:

I don't think that it is as entertaining to watch as any of the teams that won promotion, or the team that got to the Scottish Cup, or the Deefiant team. I know that's not really answering your question but enjoyment seems to me to be the reason we go to watch our team. Winning is a major part of bringing that enjoyment so it makes it hard to think that the current team compares favourably with any of those teams. It could be that the opposition is stronger now compared with division 1 days but it seems strange to me that teams with relatively small levels of support but a bit of money behind them have achieved better results. I thought Hartley was the real deal but as happens with all managers it's the quality of the players he has to work with that makes the difference, which takes us back to clubs with more financial resource better focused.

Hi BCram,

Thank you for your reply.

I cannot comment about the Dundee teams when I was an armchair supporter from 1981 to 2009 but best Dundee teams I saw were from 1971-74 and the Deefiant season.

Like you I thought that Paul Hartley who had served his time as a young manager at Alloa FC would have been a good manager and we would have difficulty hanging on to him.

A friend in a Dundee told me that his brother in law who lives in Dollar sometimes went to see Alloa playing when PH was their manager. His brother in law said that Alloa were boring to watch and if Alloa took the lead Hartley’s instruction to his team was to defend their lead and Alloa won most games 1-0.

The Motherwell’s and Ross County’s seem to have a good nucleus of players in their team  whilst this season Neil McCann has been chopping and changing the players in the team even when we have been playing teams around us in the league resulting in players playing out of position.

Barring injuries in my opinion there is no reason why Neil McCann cannot play the same team for the post split matches.

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That's my hope Islay. He's been consistent in selection for the last 4 games and the Rangers one was the only poor performance. Think he was banned from the touch line and perhaps he wasn't able to sort out the players when they got a bit out of shape. 

I'll be very surprised if the St J game is anything like the recent one and I hope that we'll see a convincing win for the Dee's. Goal scoring has been a problem for us  all season so sound defending has got to be the basis of our approach to this game. StJ will be very fired up for this game so we must expect a robust approach from them. Play quicker move the ball forward faster and hopefully Murray is due a goal or two for us. Can't make up my mind what his motivation is - play well and get an enthusiastic return to Hibs or play well and earn a permanent move to us. Seems to me that we are unlikely to be able to match his wages so I'm thinking he's hoping to do well and get back to Hibs. There's consistent comment that he is too focussed on s orang goals for himself and fails to see players in better positions to score. I think Moussa is in the same frame of mind. With a bit of encouragement they both might play for the benefit of the team and stop trying to score for themselves. One can but hope!

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9 hours ago, Cobra said:

Barkblue, I think McCann is making the board think bigger. The signings of Allan and Caulker suggest that.

And I think he's making the players think bigger. We now play the Old Firm with a belief I've not seen in maybe 15 years. A bit more quality and I think we're capable of going to Hampden and causing an upset.

I know you have little or no faith in the current management but I'd like to think we could replicate what Swansea did. They created a philosophy from the youths up which saw them rise from the fourth tier to the top flight. They persisted with a passing game which eventually proved too good for more physical sides that lumped it forward.

For years I've been resigned to Dundee being at best a struggling provincial club sitting between the relegation spots and mid-table. McCann, for all his faults, is threatening to create something better than that. He might not succeed but I'd like us to persist. The alternative is we go back to being an impatient club that hires and fires and never actually goes anywhere.

Cobra, your last paragraph is, to me, equally as valid for the the bulk of the last 50 of my 60 years of knowingly supporting Dundee FC....my previous 5 were too early to live in my memory!

Even before the traumatic 1976 relegation, we had started to show signs of poor decisions in the boardroom, which ultimately weakened us on & off the pitch. We've won none of the 3 main trophies since then, just 1 SC final & 2 LC finals, while we've bounced up & down between the top 2 leagues. Some good squads along the way, a couple of outstanding squads, some great memories, but ultimately never actually going anywhere that was sustainable, and always with the threat of financial implosion lurking in the background (or in the back of our minds).

I'm unsure why, but I don't feel too worried about our risk of relegation at the moment, though a couple of games from now, that may change!

My greatest concern for the impact of possible relegation this season is that it might result in all the good groundwork (both PH's & NM's) being once again dismantled overnight, Dev players released, youth teams ditched, coaches & other staff not offered contract renewals....and probably another change in management style/philosophy, and the consequential raft of payoffs....we've seen too many of those.  

I suspect if this happened, it could also trigger some slowing down of progress with the stadium development plans. Although Nelms has said the stadium is not dependent on us being in the Premiership, I wonder if they (DBH) genuinely believe any prolonged spell in the Championship would see DFC able to afford whatever their planned lease terms are likely to be. 

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10 hours ago, Cobra said:

Barkblue, I think McCann is making the board think bigger. The signings of Allan and Caulker suggest that.

And I think he's making the players think bigger. We now play the Old Firm with a belief I've not seen in maybe 15 years. A bit more quality and I think we're capable of going to Hampden and causing an upset.

I know you have little or no faith in the current management but I'd like to think we could replicate what Swansea did. They created a philosophy from the youths up which saw them rise from the fourth tier to the top flight. They persisted with a passing game which eventually proved too good for more physical sides that lumped it forward.

For years I've been resigned to Dundee being at best a struggling provincial club sitting between the relegation spots and mid-table. McCann, for all his faults, is threatening to create something better than that. He might not succeed but I'd like us to persist. The alternative is we go back to being an impatient club that hires and fires and never actually goes anywhere.

Cobra, if you were a Frenchman, you'd be called Phillipé Philópe.

Three games ago you made the point that (and I paraphrase - the last time I went back and quoted what someone had contradicted themselves about I got told to take it to PM) that only Dundee could appoint an inexperienced manager, with no pedigree and no time spent managing other sides.

Now, after a deserved point (should have been three) against Hearts, a backs to the wall point against Celtic and a hugely flawed, if laudable (for 60 minutes) humping at Ibrox, you're posting like a foreign manager arriving in the Scottish game and telling everyone they'll win the league within the year. 

Seriously mate - I love your passion and yes, I'm a non-believer. They mockingly called Hartley the new messiah, but the cult believers that McCann has amassed are ardent in their fervour and like true believers they are busy extolling the virtues of something they can't actually see.

It's interesting that you've chosen the Swansea model as comparison, where a couple of seasons in the top half of the table (but missing out on Europe) have been followed by further years of their best players leaving the club, a succession of managers coming and going and regular flirting with relegation. Sound familiar?

I don't care how we do it, but I hope beyond hope we can beat the drop and then hopefully your vision of the future comes to pass. However, like every other club, any sniff of success and all our best players will be offski, our manager will get tempted to a dead end job in England and we'll be back where we started. In the meantime I'd like to watch a team play with a bit of passion, some attacking intent and with the ability to score some goals - even at home. 

I don't actually feel as doom and gloom as that post suggest by the way, but there are so many folk queuing up to explain why the amazing football we're told we are seeing (but aren't) will magically materialise, that it's hard not to bite. Five games left and we're still waiting for the masterplan to unfold. I'll be delighted if it does.

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1 hour ago, barkblue said:

Cobra, if you were a Frenchman, you'd be called Phillipé Philópe.

Three games ago you made the point that (and I paraphrase - the last time I went back and quoted what someone had contradicted themselves about I got told to take it to PM) that only Dundee could appoint an inexperienced manager, with no pedigree and no time spent managing other sides.

Now, after a deserved point (should have been three) against Hearts, a backs to the wall point against Celtic and a hugely flawed, if laudable (for 60 minutes) humping at Ibrox, you're posting like a foreign manager arriving in the Scottish game and telling everyone they'll win the league within the year. 

Seriously mate - I love your passion and yes, I'm a non-believer. They mockingly called Hartley the new messiah, but the cult believers that McCann has amassed are ardent in their fervour and like true believers they are busy extolling the virtues of something they can't actually see.

It's interesting that you've chosen the Swansea model as comparison, where a couple of seasons in the top half of the table (but missing out on Europe) have been followed by further years of their best players leaving the club, a succession of managers coming and going and regular flirting with relegation. Sound familiar?

I don't care how we do it, but I hope beyond hope we can beat the drop and then hopefully your vision of the future comes to pass. However, like every other club, any sniff of success and all our best players will be offski, our manager will get tempted to a dead end job in England and we'll be back where we started. In the meantime I'd like to watch a team play with a bit of passion, some attacking intent and with the ability to score some goals - even at home. 

I don't actually feel as doom and gloom as that post suggest by the way, but there are so many folk queuing up to explain why the amazing football we're told we are seeing (but aren't) will magically materialise, that it's hard not to bite. Five games left and we're still waiting for the masterplan to unfold. I'll be delighted if it does.

I haven't contradicted myself and I haven't flip-flopped as you put it.

I do not like Dundee appointing managers with no experience (especially in the top flight) and for that reason was very much against the appointment of McCann. Once he got the job though I got behind him like I do like every Dundee manager whether it's Hartley, Bomber or Smith.

In his first full season in the job McCann has made an awful lot of mistakes as expected and at times I've been exasperated. However, I am impressed with his ambition and I do like his attempts to play a passing game.

I'm optimistic about the future because I anticipate some impressive signings and I'm hopeful McCann can learn from his mistakes and produce a more balanced team with a better plan B.

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1 hour ago, Cobra said:

I haven't contradicted myself and I haven't flip-flopped as you put it.

I do not like Dundee appointing managers with no experience (especially in the top flight) and for that reason was very much against the appointment of McCann. Once he got the job though I got behind him like I do like every Dundee manager whether it's Hartley, Bomber or Smith.

In his first full season in the job McCann has made an awful lot of mistakes as expected and at times I've been exasperated. However, I am impressed with his ambition and I do like his attempts to play a passing game.

I'm optimistic about the future because I anticipate some impressive signings and I'm hopeful McCann can learn from his mistakes and produce a more balanced team with a better plan B.

Firstly, I apologise for the tone of my post mate. It was meant much more tongue in cheek than it reads (it's been a long week and a sh*t day, but neither of those are your fault).

The impression I got a couple of weeks back was that you'd gladly have binned McCann at that stage, if I picked you up wrong then I can only apologise, I know sometimes it's hard not to get carried away positively, or negatively after good and bad results, and I did say very early in the season that if we can get through this season, we might just be onto something special and that too came after a heavy defeat - at home to Celtic, because we did seem to have a game plan, but I haven't felt that way for a long time.

Oddly, from there, we do seem to have played the glasgow teams pretty well this season, although the results only show that partly (a good home win against Rangers and a good away point at Celtic), it's the performances against the other teams that have me thoroughly scratching my head.

Where's the point in getting a great win against Rangers and good point at Celtic, while being spanked at home by Ross County and St. Johnstone and Hamilton? Over the course of a season we'll play more teams like those than we will Celtic and even if we play really well against the old firm all season, the points return can only really be expected to be 3, to 6 points probably (in a bottom six season), so surely we need to take care of business against the 'lesser' teams?

Anyway, we could go round in circles all day on this and we all have all season. Hartley split the support, but McCann seems to have caused a deeper divergence in what people see. More people have backed McCann to be fair, than those who have not and everyone wants him to succeed (whereas I didn't always feel that was the case with either of our last two managers), so I don't expect us to agree (not that we're arguing).

We both hope things turn out well over the next five games and then we'll see what happens from there.

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