Celtic

[Cobra]

Unable to lay a glove on a mid-table team from the Spanish league at home so they'll exit Europe's second competition at the last 32 stage. This is the same team that's on course to make it 9 consecutive domestic trophies.

It's frightening how much things have changed for Scottish football in the last half century. The European Cup started in 1955 and in 12 of the first 20 years there was a Scottish team in the quarter-finals or better. Now we make no impact on the knock-out stages and often don't make it to the first round.

Domestically things are a joke with only the Old Firm winning the title since 1986 and a two-horse race now reduced to a one-horse race (I know Celtic are only six points clear but I think that's because of complacency rather than other teams catching up).

What are the SFA, Uefa and Fifa doing to create a more competitive landscape? Not a lot, as far as I'm aware.

The only solution I can think of is an MLS-style wage cap but I don't know if that's feasible.

[Ned Spark]

time the spfl looked after the best interest of all the teams in the league rather than just two

[HK Blues]

6 hours ago, Cobra said:

The only solution I can think of is an MLS-style wage cap but I don't know if that's feasible.

It's feasible enough - but in the same way as clubs find ways around the Financial Fair Play rules, they will find ways around a salary cap i.e. simply divert salary into pension fund/sponsorship etc etc

Regardless, there is no appetite at the top level to distribute wealth more evenly.  

[Cobra]

35 minutes ago, HK Blues said:

It's feasible enough - but in the same way as clubs find ways around the Financial Fair Play rules, they will find ways around a salary cap i.e. simply divert salary into pension fund/sponsorship etc etc

Regardless, there is no appetite at the top level to distribute wealth more evenly.  

Sadly you're right. The big English clubs accept they need to share the wealth to have a compelling product for the fans and for them to have a chance to competing in Europe. The Old Firm want to hoard all the cash in Scotland and the solution for them is not wealth distribution but them leaving for a richer league.

I think the root of the problem is 1. gloryhunters from places like Dundee who give money to the OF instead of their local team and 2. the religious nonsense which makes folk around Britain and Ireland think the OF are part of their cultural identity. These problems have created two titans in a tiny country and the authorities are too weak and subservient to challenge them for the greater good of the game.

[Gedee]

It's no surprising with the imbalance of cash/fan numbers Celtic (& Rangers to a lesser extent) rule the roost.

If the SFA were serious & really interested in the welfare of ALL Clubs in Scotland I'm sure they could do something.

(But it must be hard for them to work on a solution, when they spend awe their time...Licking the "Big Twa's Baws")

If only they (& SFA) could be persuaded to go to England (& England wid tak them) maybe changes wid then happen.

They better no apply for a place in Spanish League. Celtic & their fans landed doon with a bump. Valencia CLASS.

[andrak]

You know where this discussion leads, right?

Lots of hand wringing.

A touch of self-pity.

A wee bit of the Deefiant spirit as the something has to change voices are crushed again (amalgamation anyone, league reconstruction, fan activism?).

Some gallows humour as the wee teams get humped by part-timers from the Andorran junior leagues.

The unsettling calm before Celtic are again stuffed by some team we at least have heard of, and blame the rest of Scottish Football for not making them better, somehow..

Aaaaaand we're back where we started.....

As you were.

[Gedee]

15 minutes ago, Andrak said:

You know where this discussion leads, right?

Lots of hand wringing.

A touch of self-pity.

A wee bit of the Deefiant spirit as the something has to change voices are crushed again (amalgamation anyone, league reconstruction, fan activism?).

Some gallows humour as the wee teams get humped by part-timers from the Andorran junior leagues.

The unsettling calm before Celtic are again stuffed by some team we at least have heard of, and blame the rest of Scottish Football for not making them better, somehow..

Aaaaaand we're back where we started.....

As you were.

Hi  Andrak ... This thread may well develop into "hand wringing & self pity" But honestly, does it really matter?

I have just responded to another topic/post, on why is this forum so quiet? If potential posters are hesitant and

decide to refrain altogether from posting/responding, because of what might develop (posts going in the "wrong"

direction) This topic may develop into a lot of fun: lots of self-pity and tears: or maybe even something interesting, 

constructive and useful ... Anything (imo) is better than a "deid forum"

PS  Ehm no getting on tae ye, cause you are my new forum freend

[andrak]

14 minutes ago, Gedee said:

Hi  Andrak ... This thread may well develop into "hand wringing & self pity"But honestly, does it really matter?

I have just responded to another topic/post, on why is this forum so quiet? If potential posters are hesitant &

decide to refrain altogether from posting/responding, because of what might develop...posst going in the "wrong" 

TBF, I don't think this thread will develop very far at all and didn't mean to put anyone off posting.

But my point is that I don't think the general debate about the state of Scottish football will develop far, either. I would really love to see a serious debate about some fundamental changes that may be needed. The self-defeating "What's the point?" brigade and the self-serving "Old Firm forever" lot, do my head in. I think we need an interclub discussion forum where these issues can be openly discussed.

Maybe we need a Non-OF Optimist forum (NOFOF) to stop it degenerating into a Celtic and Rangers bun fight like most of the other national fora.

[Gedee]

3 minutes ago, Andrak said:

TBF, I don't think this thread will develop very far at all and didn't mean to put anyone off posting.

But my point is that I don't think the general debate about the state of Scottish football will develop far, either. I would really love to see a serious debate about some fundamental changes that may be needed. The self-defeating "What's the point?" brigade and the self-serving "Old Firm forever" lot, do my head in. I think we need an interclub discussion forum where these issues can be openly discussed.

Maybe we need a Non-OF Optimist forum (NOFOF) to stop it degenerating into a Celtic and Rangers bun fight like most of the other national fora.

Hello again Andrak ..... Jings man, you were quick aff the mark with your quick (sensible) response 

Maybe even between us we can develop this topic I'll stick tae talking keech & you can keep me right

[andrak]

Sounds like a plan Gedee, but you'll be supplying most of the sense here...

Lets start by trying to work out what is the biggest obstacle to clubs like Dundee (Utd, Motherwell, Kilmarnock etc etc) from achieving a long-term sustainable business model. A starter for ten might be:

"Did we ever have such a thing?"

And if we did,

"What were the foundations and building blocks that underpinned it?"

Edited 15 February 2019 by Andrak
Bad spelling

[Gedee]

A great deal of the problem is this 12 club Premiership.  (imo)

Even for those fans who are blessed wi' super optimism (& add a bit of obsessive daftness & insanity) basically we all know, what & where, half of the division, clubs are heading for, as the season starts & progresse,s towards the season end. There has been a ripple of competitiveness this season at the top, as Celtic (it could arguably be said) have NOT had totally their own way ... But they will of course still win the Premiership.

The format leading towards the "Play-offs" I think has proved to hold a certain excitement (as long as oor chosen team is no involved) ... This stressful time is NOT for the weak-hearted.

It appears to me that the "lesser clubs" even from the start of the season, have the thought/fear of relegation in mind ... And this affect negatively how most club/teams/players, approach each & every game. ... And this in turn (especially in the present financial uncertainty of many fans/families) has an effect on attendance figures. I accept, money is NOT an issue for some fans. But those who are "struggling" with poverty, benefits, low wages, unemployment, fear of redundancy, they (& their families) will question if it justifies getting together the cost of attending games, when they go up there & see what is on offer !! They will accept the occasion poor games. But as each game deteriorates into 90 mins of negativity & worse, they may reach the stage, where they believe, the pain is not worth it.

In all honesty, I don't really know the answer, nor am I sure the comments  I have made in this post have any bearing on your question Andrak ... But it may help to kick-off a discussion.

The idea of again a 16 size division has been hammered to death & I am no' gonna try to detail the pluses & minuses in this argument. We now live in different times & any change can be a bit mair difficult for aulder ains, who may be set in their ways. But I honestly believe, the present 12 club set-up, which I assume was introduced to make things more exciting & competitive (& keep "thon twa" happy) has had a general negative effect on Scottish Fitba.

Some fans have said, in the days of the bigger divisions there were many more games that had little meaning ... And as such very little excitement 

WHIT SHOULD HAVE BEN THE DULLEST GAME, COULD WELL BE EXCITING, AS THE PRESSURE WAS OFF THE CLUB/MANAGER/ PLAYERS

[andrak]

One of the biggest problems we have is that many people feel that they have hammered to death all the arguments. In fact, some of the arguments have been discussed but only on their own merits rather than as a part of a package of changes underpinned by a more radical rethink of the purpose of having a national football league in the first place.

It seems to me that the whole edifice has been structured (over the last 25 odd years) so as to enable the participation of Celtic and Rangers in the Champions League. Of course, both of those clubs were instrumental in the structural changes that were necessary to achieve that end, but there was a large contribution from the SFA, SPL and, latterly, the SPFL.

The crazy league structure, the pitiful TV deals, the lack of financial fair play rules, and the gerrymandering of committee memberships are all symptomatic of the underlying disease which is slowly eating away at the economic hearts of all the other clubs in the league. Maybe between 3 and 5 teams in the Premiership (and top of the Championship) are on life support with a very dodgy connection to the socket, Dundee included. Must we wait until a few actually die before people take notice?

When the next three biggest clubs in the league, even with full houses every week, can barely lay a glove on the top team over many years, you have to wonder how things could ever become more competitive without some truly fundamental changes.

The silence of other club chairmen is deafening. I wonder are they just scared or are they complicit? The apparent ineptitude of those running Scottish Football has been taken as read by most for so long, maybe we have just come to accept that that is the way it should always be.

The media will talk about the excitement at the bottom of the league and the play-offs, but when the pain suffered by the losers is so great, it might as well be played out in a bull ring, or maybe the colosseum or the Hunger Games studio. It is a particularly gruesome form of entertainment.