What John Nelms - or Any Incomer - Probably Will Never Get

[GoatLord]

I’ve been trying to get my head round John Nelms’ programme notes from Saturday.  I’ve posted a few comments here, on twitter and on facebook where I’ve been extremely critical.  I’ve even questioned his sanity.  But I don’t dislike John Nelms or what he and Tim Keyes have done for Dundee FC since they became involved with our club.  I think we have a huge amount to be grateful to them for, although I think many of the decisions made since they arrived have been, and continue to be, flawed.  However, I think there’s always going to be a fundamental disconnect that exists between incomers and those who have been born and brought up to support a certain football club.

Some non-football obsessed relatives of mine view my support for Dundee FC with a mixture of sympathy and disdain. I actually think they fail to comprehend how an (apparently) fairly rational individual can invest so much in such an irrational activity as following a football team. Aye…there’s the rub. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

Some of the closest, most fundamental friendships of my life exist through a shared love of Dundee FC. If you’ve never been in such a situation, you’ll never get why supporting the team becomes inextricably linked with your existence.  God knows, I’ve had times when I wished it was easier to walk away – perhaps this season more than ever – but it’s not something you can do easily.  Not if being a Dundee FC supporter is part of who you are. Read “Fever Pitch” by Nick Hornby. Life events chronicled according to a timeline defined by his support of his team.  When people ask me the year I was married I tell them “the year we got to the Scottish Cup Final” (2003, for the avoidance of doubt – the only Scottish Cup final appearance of my supporting life).  The wife is long gone.  The memories of the run to that final remain as a happier beacon than a miserable marriage.  Is that sad or pathetic?  Maybe.  But it’s reality for many of us.  If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

So, John Nelms writes a programme column where he invokes some risible “no one likes us…” rhetoric, possibly in an attempt to establish some affinity with his customer base.  Maybe he thinks we’ll read it and think “good old John, he’s one of us”. I didn’t do that and I don’t think I ever could. I’ve lived my life with my football club largely run by liars, charlatans, cheats and chancers. I’ve had the ability to trust the stewards of my club beaten out of me. I’ve maybe had the fight beaten out of me too. One administration can almost do that, never mind two. Another relegation, although too many of us have suffered the same before, seems almost too much to bear. But bear it we will, if we are true fans. And it’s difficult not to be when it’s part of your DNA.

I renewed my season ticket yesterday. Some may think I’m gullible or stupid. Part of me questioned my very sanity when I did it. But, when it comes down to it, one of my very best, lifelong friends has his season ticket seat next to mine. I’ve known him for even longer than we’ve occupied South Enclosure seats together at Dens. I know I’ve guaranteed that when I pitch up to Dens next season – and I’m not even being deluded enough to say I’ll be there week-in, week-out, irrespective of fortunes – I’ll be sitting beside my mate. That’s more a part of being a Dundee fan than Dark Blue shirts or whoever happens to be wearing them that season. It’s something that, no matter how long he may sit in a CEO office, John Nelms can probably never get.

If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

[Cobra]

I remember thinking it was a godsend the board were disconnected from the fanbase when calls for Hartley's head were ignored in 2014, 2015 and 2016.

Then came the demented decision to appoint Dundee legend Neil McCann as manager just as Hibs got promoted to make it the hardest league in years. I felt like I was back in 1999 with a fan in the boardroom doing whatever he felt would be a quick win amongst the fans.

Then came the horrific series of events last October when it seemed the boardroom was knee-jerking in the most desperate way in response to the emotions of the fans.

Now with the team in freefall and crying out for change the board have decided it's time to ignore the fanbase and put total faith in a guy with an 11% win percentage.

I've got to the stage where I'm prepared for anything from the club. Will we sack McIntyre tomorrow or give him a five-year contract? Nothing would surprise me. All discipline and sense has vanished. We're a reckless and clueless car crash of a club at the moment. If relegation forces changes at boardroom level then going down might prove to be a blessing in disguise.

[Deetection]

2 hours ago, GoatLord said:

I’ve been trying to get my head round John Nelms’ programme notes from Saturday.  I’ve posted a few comments here, on twitter and on facebook where I’ve been extremely critical.  I’ve even questioned his sanity.  But I don’t dislike John Nelms or what he and Tim Keyes have done for Dundee FC since they became involved with our club.  I think we have a huge amount to be grateful to them for, although I think many of the decisions made since they arrived have been, and continue to be, flawed.  However, I think there’s always going to be a fundamental disconnect that exists between incomers and those who have been born and brought up to support a certain football club.

Some non-football obsessed relatives of mine view my support for Dundee FC with a mixture of sympathy and disdain. I actually think they fail to comprehend how an (apparently) fairly rational individual can invest so much in such an irrational activity as following a football team. Aye…there’s the rub. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

Some of the closest, most fundamental friendships of my life exist through a shared love of Dundee FC. If you’ve never been in such a situation, you’ll never get why supporting the team becomes inextricably linked with your existence.  God knows, I’ve had times when I wished it was easier to walk away – perhaps this season more than ever – but it’s not something you can do easily.  Not if being a Dundee FC supporter is part of who you are. Read “Fever Pitch” by Nick Hornby. Life events chronicled according to a timeline defined by his support of his team.  When people ask me the year I was married I tell them “the year we got to the Scottish Cup Final” (2003, for the avoidance of doubt – the only Scottish Cup final appearance of my supporting life).  The wife is long gone.  The memories of the run to that final remain as a happier beacon than a miserable marriage.  Is that sad or pathetic?  Maybe.  But it’s reality for many of us.  If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

So, John Nelms writes a programme column where he invokes some risible “no one likes us…” rhetoric, possibly in an attempt to establish some affinity with his customer base.  Maybe he thinks we’ll read it and think “good old John, he’s one of us”. I didn’t do that and I don’t think I ever could. I’ve lived my life with my football club largely run by liars, charlatans, cheats and chancers. I’ve had the ability to trust the stewards of my club beaten out of me. I’ve maybe had the fight beaten out of me too. One administration can almost do that, never mind two. Another relegation, although too many of us have suffered the same before, seems almost too much to bear. But bear it we will, if we are true fans. And it’s difficult not to be when it’s part of your DNA.

I renewed my season ticket yesterday. Some may think I’m gullible or stupid. Part of me questioned my very sanity when I did it. But, when it comes down to it, one of my very best, lifelong friends has his season ticket seat next to mine. I’ve known him for even longer than we’ve occupied South Enclosure seats together at Dens. I know I’ve guaranteed that when I pitch up to Dens next season – and I’m not even being deluded enough to say I’ll be there week-in, week-out, irrespective of fortunes – I’ll be sitting beside my mate. That’s more a part of being a Dundee fan than Dark Blue shirts or whoever happens to be wearing them that season. It’s something that, no matter how long he may sit in a CEO office, John Nelms can probably never get.

If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

This is the best post I’ve ever read on here.

I have no idea who you are, but if anyone is to meet John Nelms on behalf of the fans, I put you forward.

[Prince Buster]

Hmmmmm. Pretty sure we were all lauding over John Nelms not so long ago for running the club on a business basis, i.e. with the brain, rather than with the heart and many were saying it was good that he had no real affinity for the club. Of course that was when we had Harkins, Stewart, Hemmings, Thomson etc. and were a decent looking outfit. Move on a few years, we're sh**e and John Nelms' detachment is now a bad thing.

I asked him and another board member once why they couldn't do a special admission rate for a couple of games and the response was that it would not realise enough extra people through the gate to produce more cash than leaving prices as they were. A completely justifiable and sensible business response, no thought of gestures or helping out the fans or potentially getting another few ticket sales down the line just plain we wouldn't take more cash that day so it's not worth it. 

It was proven that people with the club at heart weren't the best people to run it, are we now saying that a purely business focus is also not the way to run the club? I'm as hacked off as anyone else, possibly more than some, at the way the club is right now but we can't have our cake and eat it. We either want the board detached from the emotional side or we don't. Personally I still think it's right to run the club on as sound a business footing as possible - my main beef is that John Nelms just won't communicate and won't take time to speak to the real fans to gauge their opinion. His reliance on one or two individuals to relay fan feelings to him has maybe made him more detached than he might be but he has to stay detached.

[GoatLord]

4 hours ago, Prince Buster said:

Hmmmmm. Pretty sure we were all lauding over John Nelms not so long ago for running the club on a business basis, i.e. with the brain, rather than with the heart and many were saying it was good that he had no real affinity for the club. Of course that was when we had Harkins, Stewart, Hemmings, Thomson etc. and were a decent looking outfit. Move on a few years, we're sh**e and John Nelms' detachment is now a bad thing.

I asked him and another board member once why they couldn't do a special admission rate for a couple of games and the response was that it would not realise enough extra people through the gate to produce more cash than leaving prices as they were. A completely justifiable and sensible business response, no thought of gestures or helping out the fans or potentially getting another few ticket sales down the line just plain we wouldn't take more cash that day so it's not worth it. 

It was proven that people with the club at heart weren't the best people to run it, are we now saying that a purely business focus is also not the way to run the club? I'm as hacked off as anyone else, possibly more than some, at the way the club is right now but we can't have our cake and eat it. We either want the board detached from the emotional side or we don't. Personally I still think it's right to run the club on as sound a business footing as possible - my main beef is that John Nelms just won't communicate and won't take time to speak to the real fans to gauge their opinion. His reliance on one or two individuals to relay fan feelings to him has maybe made him more detached than he might be but he has to stay detached.

His detachment is a problem when you get a situation like appointing a boss while being ignorant of, or disregarding the impact of, his preferred assistant. 

[Prince Buster]

41 minutes ago, GoatLord said:

His detachment is a problem when you get a situation like appointing a boss while being ignorant of, or disregarding the impact of, his preferred assistant. 

Agree in that respect however if he just trusted more people he'd have had a whisper in his ear and could have addressed the situation before it became public. I imagine if he'd offered McIntyre the job on the condition he didn't appoint Jug Lugs as assistant it would have been better all round and McIntyre might even have turned it down.

[GoatLord]

20 minutes ago, Prince Buster said:

Agree in that respect however if he just trusted more people he'd have had a whisper in his ear and could have addressed the situation before it became public. I imagine if he'd offered McIntyre the job on the condition he didn't appoint Jug Lugs as assistant it would have been better all round and McIntyre might even have turned it down.

Think you’re spot on there Prince

[EuanG]

I read the article in the programme and wondered about what it was meant to do. I do believe that DFC is run better now than in past years and the history of many clubs with the appointment of managers is of trial and error. We can sl*g JIM Macintyre but when an appointment was to be made what did they look for. A man who took a regional club to win a trophy in the last few years and who had vision for the club. Jim MAC ticked the boxes and he has been backed by the Board. Of course we are all hurt and fed up where we are but not sure that it is Nelms fault. 

[Dayster]

22 minutes ago, EuanG said:

I read the article in the programme and wondered about what it was meant to do. I do believe that DFC is run better now than in past years and the history of many clubs with the appointment of managers is of trial and error. We can sl*g JIM Macintyre but when an appointment was to be made what did they look for. A man who took a regional club to win a trophy in the last few years and who had vision for the club. Jim MAC ticked the boxes and he has been backed by the Board. Of course we are all hurt and fed up where we are but not sure that it is Nelms fault. 

It was how the appointment was done the rankles me...International break, wait till 3 days before our next game to sack NM. Have JM in the door the next day, no sign of a proper recruitment process to see who wants the job, just pick the first out of work manager there was. A gamble that has failed to pay off

[barkblue]

7 hours ago, Dayster said:

It was how the appointment was done the rankles me...International break, wait till 3 days before our next game to sack NM. Have JM in the door the next day, no sign of a proper recruitment process to see who wants the job, just pick the first out of work manager there was. A gamble that has failed to pay off

I think the first part of that international break was spent 'encouraging' - in a variety of ways - Neil McCann to walk of his own accord.

[Reverend Lovejoy]

22 hours ago, GoatLord said:

I’ve been trying to get my head round John Nelms’ programme notes from Saturday.  I’ve posted a few comments here, on twitter and on facebook where I’ve been extremely critical.  I’ve even questioned his sanity.  But I don’t dislike John Nelms or what he and Tim Keyes have done for Dundee FC since they became involved with our club.  I think we have a huge amount to be grateful to them for, although I think many of the decisions made since they arrived have been, and continue to be, flawed.  However, I think there’s always going to be a fundamental disconnect that exists between incomers and those who have been born and brought up to support a certain football club.

Some non-football obsessed relatives of mine view my support for Dundee FC with a mixture of sympathy and disdain. I actually think they fail to comprehend how an (apparently) fairly rational individual can invest so much in such an irrational activity as following a football team. Aye…there’s the rub. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

Some of the closest, most fundamental friendships of my life exist through a shared love of Dundee FC. If you’ve never been in such a situation, you’ll never get why supporting the team becomes inextricably linked with your existence.  God knows, I’ve had times when I wished it was easier to walk away – perhaps this season more than ever – but it’s not something you can do easily.  Not if being a Dundee FC supporter is part of who you are. Read “Fever Pitch” by Nick Hornby. Life events chronicled according to a timeline defined by his support of his team.  When people ask me the year I was married I tell them “the year we got to the Scottish Cup Final” (2003, for the avoidance of doubt – the only Scottish Cup final appearance of my supporting life).  The wife is long gone.  The memories of the run to that final remain as a happier beacon than a miserable marriage.  Is that sad or pathetic?  Maybe.  But it’s reality for many of us.  If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

So, John Nelms writes a programme column where he invokes some risible “no one likes us…” rhetoric, possibly in an attempt to establish some affinity with his customer base.  Maybe he thinks we’ll read it and think “good old John, he’s one of us”. I didn’t do that and I don’t think I ever could. I’ve lived my life with my football club largely run by liars, charlatans, cheats and chancers. I’ve had the ability to trust the stewards of my club beaten out of me. I’ve maybe had the fight beaten out of me too. One administration can almost do that, never mind two. Another relegation, although too many of us have suffered the same before, seems almost too much to bear. But bear it we will, if we are true fans. And it’s difficult not to be when it’s part of your DNA.

I renewed my season ticket yesterday. Some may think I’m gullible or stupid. Part of me questioned my very sanity when I did it. But, when it comes down to it, one of my very best, lifelong friends has his season ticket seat next to mine. I’ve known him for even longer than we’ve occupied South Enclosure seats together at Dens. I know I’ve guaranteed that when I pitch up to Dens next season – and I’m not even being deluded enough to say I’ll be there week-in, week-out, irrespective of fortunes – I’ll be sitting beside my mate. That’s more a part of being a Dundee fan than Dark Blue shirts or whoever happens to be wearing them that season. It’s something that, no matter how long he may sit in a CEO office, John Nelms can probably never get.

If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and you never will get it.

Superb post mate.