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Gedee

What Would Actually Happen If Our American Friends Said, They Had Enough & Walked Away?

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5 hours ago, Gedee said:

From the Opening Topic barkblue ... "Then the US Owners say we are off !! Where do we go from there?"

That really is the crux of my topic ... Never mind who owns or disnae own Dens. If the Campie thing never

happens & it all falls apart for them. There are no outside interested parties willing to part with their cash,

is that then the end of DFC? Or is there some way we, the fans, can keep Our Club going? It may be me the

case I'm letting my imagination run away here. But if their plans collapse & there's no buyers, What then?

Sorry Gedee, I took from your post that the thrust of it was asking about whether we should make an effort to buy back Dens. If the Americans decide to walk, who owns Dens will then become a huge issue because it's a cost (rent AND upkeep) that we just couldn't meet. 

What happens behind that? Honestly, no idea. It depends how they exited. Unless they actively encourage the club to fold, they'd need to see on their shareholding. As Islay said, there might be some wealthy Dee fans willing to pick up the baton, but then again there might not. If there isn't, then it would be back to fan ownership. You'd hope we'd have learnt enough lessons to do it more effectively this time but if that period taught us anything, then it's that there are more people willing to snipe and gripe from the sidelines than there are willing to get their hands dirty.

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Is it worse not to engage with the fans than to engage and to take us to the brink of oblivion?

FPS have not been great but they have sure been much better than numerous custodians in my lifetime. 

If they go, near certainty that we will not see similar levels of investment in the team in the foreseeable future if ever again. 

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9 hours ago, barkblue said:

Sorry Gedee, I took from your post that the thrust of it was asking about whether we should make an effort to buy back Dens. If the Americans decide to walk, who owns Dens will then become a huge issue because it's a cost (rent AND upkeep) that we just couldn't meet. 

What happens behind that? Honestly, no idea. It depends how they exited. Unless they actively encourage the club to fold, they'd need to see on their shareholding. As Islay said, there might be some wealthy Dee fans willing to pick up the baton, but then again there might not. If there isn't, then it would be back to fan ownership. You'd hope we'd have learnt enough lessons to do it more effectively this time but if that period taught us anything, then it's that there are more people willing to snipe and gripe from the sidelines than there are willing to get their hands dirty.

Hello barkblue, no need to say sorry. If there is a complicated, convoluted way, for someone to ask a simple question ... I'm your man :chaplin:

(I put it down to the many voices in meh heid) .. Sometimes it's hard tae ken, whit ain to listen to :wacko: The Americans (John Nelms) is being

attacked from just about every quarter (inc me at times) There just might come a time when he & Keyes, says, enough is enough & pull out.

I know it's not as simple as that. But as experienced business men, they themselves would not want to go on losing money or add "failure"

to their own Business CV. Think a great deal will depend on the "Campie Project" If this falls through & they're hit with the realisation  DFC

are going nowhere but doon. And add to that the drop in attendances (money no coming in)  Fitba Manager & players that've lost the plot,

unlikely as it may seem, we may end up left with the whole mess. Even a lesser Dundee is better than nothing. But not the idea of folding :tears:

It's hard to believe, ehm the (self-elected) President of the Happy Clappy Club :bye:

 

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8 hours ago, Valentke said:

Is it worse not to engage with the fans than to engage and to take us to the brink of oblivion?

FPS have not been great but they have sure been much better than numerous custodians in my lifetime. 

If they go, near certainty that we will not see similar levels of investment in the team in the foreseeable future if ever again. 

Hello Valentke...  I agree generally with your short concise response above. There is no need for me to go into the issues of communication (lack of) again, I have said enough regarding this in the past. Lately however JN seems to be getting it in the neck from every quarter ... And I know if it were me, as long as I was continuing to financially cover what seems ongoing financial gaps & holes, I'd be inclined to tell my critics to "move along" (In fact I'm no' sure I'd be as restrained as that) :rant:

It was a genuine question posed, to help give me a better understanding of our position. Let's hope, it turns around:chaplin:

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Purchasing Dens Park from John Bennet would not make any business sense, we are paying what could be classed as a soft loan in rent for playing here.  I would rather proper training facilities than buying back dens park. 

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10 hours ago, Valentke said:

Is it worse not to engage with the fans than to engage and to take us to the brink of oblivion?

FPS have not been great but they have sure been much better than numerous custodians in my lifetime. 

If they go, near certainty that we will not see similar levels of investment in the team in the foreseeable future if ever again. 

I suppose the not knowing leaves things open to interpretation. FPS have been very guarded regarding their current and future plans for us. It's easy to sit on the outside and offer criticism though when you don't know the full story and that's probably why, coupled with our league position, we're seeing a load of mud slinging just now. Mud tends to stick though so it might be an idea for Nelms to open up to an extent, you never know he might just recieve some help in delivering whatever it is he's working on. There's probably loads of Dee's out there in various fields who can offer assistance if Nelms is willing to just let people in. Being secretive will only lead to speculation that he's up to no good.

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14 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

I suppose the not knowing leaves things open to interpretation. FPS have been very guarded regarding their current and future plans for us. It's easy to sit on the outside and offer criticism though when you don't know the full story and that's probably why, coupled with our league position, we're seeing a load of mud slinging just now. Mud tends to stick though so it might be an idea for Nelms to open up to an extent, you never know he might just recieve some help in delivering whatever it is he's working on. There's probably loads of Dee's out there in various fields who can offer assistance if Nelms is willing to just let people in. Being secretive will only lead to speculation that he's up to no good.

As usual Rev, there is a lot of sense & truth in your comments .. And although I dinnae want to focus solely on the communication aspects, I will agree there is a lot of "stuff" us as fans, don't need to know. But I am still surprised he doesn't make a bit more effort to be more open & friendly with the DFC  fans & supporters on a regular basis. It cannae be much fun for him reading some of the vitriolic bile that is directed to him ... We have all seen John Nelms in front of cameras (I think)  ... And in my opinion he comes over as a friendly, honest, decent man.

I am still no quite sure what a Director of Football does. But if he can add something to the Club, whilst at the same time, take some pressure off JN (To allow him to focus fully on Campie Project) and also allow, JM to focus on the managing & coaching & improving his regular playing squad, maybe it would be money well spent ... Maybe both are stretching themselves too far.

It just kinda feels, there is no' very much going right for DFC just now. But I know, myself & others, will get through this as we did in the past....

But I don't want the pressures of our present situation be the reason the Americanos decide to walk away...Cannae deal wi awe this Joy:chaplin:

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2 hours ago, Gedee said:

Hello barkblue, no need to say sorry. If there is a complicated, convoluted way, for someone to ask a simple question ... I'm your man :chaplin:

(I put it down to the many voices in meh heid) .. Sometimes it's hard tae ken, whit ain to listen to :wacko: The Americans (John Nelms) is being

attacked from just about every quarter (inc me at times) There just might come a time when he & Keyes, says, enough is enough & pull out.

I know it's not as simple as that. But as experienced business men, they themselves would not want to go on losing money or add "failure"

to their own Business CV. Think a great deal will depend on the "Campie Project" If this falls through & they're hit with the realisation  DFC

are going nowhere but doon. And add to that the drop in attendances (money no coming in)  Fitba Manager & players that've lost the plot,

unlikely as it may seem, we may end up left with the whole mess. Even a lesser Dundee is better than nothing. But not the idea of folding :tears:

It's hard to believe, ehm the (self-elected) President of the Happy Clappy Club :bye:

 

And if there's someone who can answer a question with 1000 words when 10 will do it's me Gedee! 🙂 

The one criticism that we really can't aim at FPS is their backing of managers. The amount of players we've signed over their tenure is incredible - in fact it's barely credible, that's maybe been the problem? I know that folk point at Shankland or Mallan and point out that we didn't shell out the money for these lads, but maybe if the respective managers hadn't already built ginormous squads and ended up paying a load of players to leave, then the board might have believed in the quality over quantity ethos the last three managers have spoken of but then not delivered (and we will never really know how these player's parent clubs were playing the game either).

Will FPS bolt if we're relegated? I genuinely don't think so. There does seem to be some long term planning and they're already building a squad for next season. If we end up stuck down there, then that might be when they question their involvement. That said, they were willing to spend longer than we did down there before achieving promotion when they first arrived, so maybe they'd see it as a temporary setback?

Keyes and Nelms have stated numerous times that what started as a short-medium term venture has quickly become more for them, but with the once bitten twice shy approach we all quite rightly have, we are all (me too) finding that hard to understand or believe. However, that Keyes has consistently looked to plug the financial gap, rather than simply lumber the club with the debt suggests they aren't simply looking for a quick exit, because he's never going to get that back and even with a new stadium, at the current £500,000 a year 'investment' and no spade in the ground at Campy, it would take a lot of years to claw that back, never mind make profit. And I can't see any other way to make money form Dundee FC. 

From the players to the manager and from the lack of communication to ST & PATG prices and match day arrangements, I've been as critical as anyone else regarding FPS and Nelms in particular. However, if they were willing to open up just a little, welcome a little more fan involvement and discuss certain aspects a little more I think they'd see a quick turn around in attitude. Most Dee's want us, and therefore the board, to succeed, but what we see is a list of half (or not at all) kept promises, so when things then also go badly on the pitch, all of that will get, understandably, thrown back at the board. 

(see, 1000 words when 10 would do!)

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9 minutes ago, barkblue said:

And if there's someone who can answer a question with 1000 words when 10 will do it's me Gedee! 🙂 

The one criticism that we really can't aim at FPS is their backing of managers. The amount of players we've signed over their tenure is incredible - in fact it's barely credible, that's maybe been the problem? I know that folk point at Shankland or Mallan and point out that we didn't shell out the money for these lads, but maybe if the respective managers hadn't already built ginormous squads and ended up paying a load of players to leave, then the board might have believed in the quality over quantity ethos the last three managers have spoken of but then not delivered (and we will never really know how these player's parent clubs were playing the game either).

Will FPS bolt if we're relegated? I genuinely don't think so. There does seem to be some long term planning and they're already building a squad for next season. If we end up stuck down there, then that might be when they question their involvement. That said, they were willing to spend longer than we did down there before achieving promotion when they first arrived, so maybe they'd see it as a temporary setback?

Keyes and Nelms have stated numerous times that what started as a short-medium term venture has quickly become more for them, but with the once bitten twice shy approach we all quite rightly have, we are all (me too) finding that hard to understand or believe. However, that Keyes has consistently looked to plug the financial gap, rather than simply lumber the club with the debt suggests they aren't simply looking for a quick exit, because he's never going to get that back and even with a new stadium, at the current £500,000 a year 'investment' and no spade in the ground at Campy, it would take a lot of years to claw that back, never mind make profit. And I can't see any other way to make money form Dundee FC. 

From the players to the manager and from the lack of communication to ST & PATG prices and match day arrangements, I've been as critical as anyone else regarding FPS and Nelms in particular. However, if they were willing to open up just a little, welcome a little more fan involvement and discuss certain aspects a little more I think they'd see a quick turn around in attitude. Most Dee's want us, and therefore the board, to succeed, but what we see is a list of half (or not at all) kept promises, so when things then also go badly on the pitch, all of that will get, understandably, thrown back at the board. 

(see, 1000 words when 10 would do!)

Excellent post Friend ... Communicates to me a great deal of sense.

Also easy to read because it's well thought-through. And very well structured & presented.

Probably could add a little more in the way of a response. But I like to be short & concise ;)

Truth is you've made some good point that warrant further discussion...DFC TOGETHER :wub:

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18 hours ago, Dondeh said:

Administration is the 'best' we could hope for. 

Administration is a non starter.

The minimum the SFA would demand is that we start in Div 3.

Imo the fans could not stomach another administration.

Personally I would rather close the doors and walk away, the disgrace would be too much to stomach.

The decent thing for FPS to do would be to come clean with the fans as to their plans for the future.

If their not in it for the long term, then they should be looking for a new owner to take over.

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5 hours ago, Spiritof62 said:

 

The decent thing for FPS to do would be to come clean with the fans as to their plans for the future.

If their not in it for the long term, then they should be looking for a new owner to take over

I genuinely fear what would happen, look how long that mob across the road took to get sold. 

FWIW I don’t think we’ll be in that position anytime soon. I think they’re here for a bit yet, just my opinion 

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6 hours ago, Spiritof62 said:

Administration is a non starter.

The minimum the SFA would demand is that we start in Div 3.

 

Yep. That's what I think tbh. 

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On 13/04/2019 at 12:59, Spiritof62 said:

Administration is a non starter.

The minimum the SFA would demand is that we start in Div 3.

 

Administration would be a disaster but this sort of sensationalism doesn't help.

SPFL rules are that any club going into administration is immediately docked points. The SFA has no jurisdiction over what happens in the SPFL does it? Administration is not a Rangers situation where the club was actually liquidated and had to start again from scratch in Div 3.

 

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54 minutes ago, Prince Buster said:

Administration would be a disaster but this sort of sensationalism doesn't help.

SPFL rules are that any club going into administration is immediately docked points. The SFA has no jurisdiction over what happens in the SPFL does it? Administration is not a Rangers situation where the club was actually liquidated and had to start again from scratch in Div 3.

 

Thanks for a clear, concise response to the Topic Question Prince ... I'd like to think it's unlikely we will ever reach this stage, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who has these fearful thoughts, especially with our possible problems on & off the field ... The poor season that threatens relegation, & what appears as the total hold up in progress or side-lining, of the Campie Project, & what also might be added, the uncertainty of a future DFC manager, general cash flow & just about non communication between JN & Fans.

(Jings sorry...Eh ken how tae cheer awebody up) ... It's crazy. But awe it needs is 3points on Saturday and the World will look a better place ... The Dee :wub:

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10 hours ago, Prince Buster said:

Administration would be a disaster but this sort of sensationalism doesn't help.

SPFL rules are that any club going into administration is immediately docked points. The SFA has no jurisdiction over what happens in the SPFL does it? Administration is not a Rangers situation where the club was actually liquidated and had to start again from scratch in Div 3.

 

FWIW I  think that if we were to survive this season (big If) lessons would finally have been learned by Nelms and Keys, there not stupid and would not want to repeat the clusterfeck of this campaign. 

Thats why while there is a chance however slight, every man jack should give everything for the cause.

I think we would clear out the dross (again) sign some decent players and finally make some progress, this season has been sobering for all concerned, the club won’t get too many more chances.

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16 minutes ago, Spiritof62 said:

Thats why while there is a chance however slight, every man jack should give everything for the cause.

^^^ this.

Three weeks ago I was the only one of my group at Perth, this Saturday there are 5 going. I’m hoping everyone rallies round no matter their views on individual personalities. 

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45 minutes ago, Spiritof62 said:

FWIW I  think that if we were to survive this season (big If) lessons would finally have been learned by Nelms and Keys, there not stupid and would not want to repeat the clusterfeck of this campaign. 

You'd certainly hope so wouldn't you?

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2 hours ago, Valentke said:

^^^ this.

Three weeks ago I was the only one of my group at Perth, this Saturday there are 5 going. I’m hoping everyone rallies round no matter their views on individual personalities. 

Hope so . I don’t give two hoots for the personalities but we have to try and help the team as best we all can

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21 minutes ago, DarkBlueKnight said:

Hope so . I don’t give two hoots for the personalities but we have to try and help the team as best we all can

There will be over 2000 Dees there on Saturday I am sure.Its PATG so be there early to avoid the queues

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As I say on another thread somebody tell the players to turn up

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3 minutes ago, Spiritof62 said:

Maybe just this once the players will be up to the challenge.

There will no place to hide this time Spirit' .... It may well be the "Last Chance Saloon" for the DFC manager & players.

More importantly, for us to hold our place in the Premiership this season...Mon lads out there & do yourselves proud.

DO NOT LET YOUR CLUB, YOURSELVES, OR THE DFC FANS & SUPPORTERS DOWN.

MAKE THIS A SEASON TO REMEMBER FOR ALL THE RIGHT REASONS.LET'S DO IT.

WHAT'S PAST IS NOW IN THE PAST. GO OUT ON SAT & PLAY WITH FIRE & PRIDE:chaplin:

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20 minutes ago, dfcman said:

As I say on another thread somebody tell the players to turn up

In my post above (& most recent posts) dfcman, I think that is exactly what I am trying to do.

All our support & words of encouragement, may NOT make one iota of difference on the day.

But on the other hand, it just might ... And even if it doesn't, let them never say we didnae try.

Mighty Dark Blues let's get these 3 points & give yourselves & us something to celebrate :bouncy:

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On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:22, Gedee said:

Was reading Shaded's Post on Dundee Mad, on what he describes (affectionately) as the "Old Lady" ... DENS PARK.

He asked the question (as broken doon as it is) should we consider as fans, try to raise money to buy it (apologies

Shaded if I have got it wrong...& for "in part" stealing your topic) But it was his reminder that buying Dens was part,

of the original deal, that got "lost" somewhere when contract was finally signed & we happily welcomed US freends.

He also suggested (my words now) the Campie Project has stalled enough to make us wonder, if it will ever happen.

So going back to my own topic above (which I think has links to shaded post) If Campie Project does fall through &

DFC seems to be in freefall and  going nowhere. Then the US Owners say we are off !! Where do we go from there?

It's a genuine question, which I know has been discussed before, but I have yet to understand where that leaves us.

As well as a debate & discussion on this, for my own benefit I would appreciate if others could enlighten me on this.

I have been thinking about the repercussions of FPS leaving for a while. The belief from some fans that the club would close for good if they left is just scare stories. It would not be nearly as drastic a situation as our previous admins.

Every season the club have been making significant losses and Keyes has had to provide loans to keep us going. Each year those loans have been converted to shares. So if FPS walked away they would simply lose their investment. There is likely to be some loans outstanding for the current year. Technically FPS could demand these are repaid, but they would know the club would not be in a position to repay them. So I don't see them wasting more time and money chasing this.

The question really is who would come in to own the club. Unless a Bill Colvin type wants to help out the club, I don't see us being anything other than fan owned again.

If we became fan owned, the club would immediately have to start making a profit (or at least breakeven). Is that possible? In the long term definitely. We would just have to reduce the wage budget. In the short term it might be more difficult. It would really depend on how many long term unaffordable contracts we have handed out to players.

The stadium situation would remain an issue of course. There are all sorts of rumours that get floated about with this. Some say John Bennett is being very generous to the club and is willing to sell at a very reasonable sum. Others say he is milking the club dry and is an Arab who doesn't care about us. The figures for the stadium upkeep (in comparison to other grounds) also vary widely to suit a persons argument. So it's very difficult to know what the situation really is.

Having previously been on board with moving stadiums, I am now beginning to change my mind. FPS keep their cards very close to their chest, and have a history of reneging (or at least misleading) on what they say they will do. I am therefore very wary of their motives and how they intend to recoup their significant investments. Will Dark Blue Holdings simply charge extortionate rent to DFC?

In the hypothetical situation of us becoming fan owned again, I can see a way where Dens could be purchased by the fans and upgraded enough so that it is no longer falling apart. Would the Council or the Government give a grant to help the fans buy it? They are doing that for Hampden so it is quite possible they could be persuaded if the community/benefit for the city aspect was at the forefront of the argument. Alternatively, they might even help fund a new stadium along the lines of the Campy development (since the city does need a new concert venue).

Whatever happens, I think the fans should be starting to try and raise a rainy day fund because you can be sure at some point we will need it.  

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Very impressed with the comments in your post above Edin-Dee. And even more impressed, with the way you have presented it.

From the point of view of a layman (me) who has little understanding in this area I follow your thought processes and scenarios

The idea of my topic, was NOT to add the worries and concerns we are already going through this season...But I did want some

understanding of where we might stand, if the worst came to the worst. I realise (&hope) this may never happen, but just like all

other DFC fans/supporters who love our club, I was looking for answers. Your post's easily understood. Makes good sense (imo)

Thank you Friend:chaplin:

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