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Billy Campbell's Ghost

Directors of Football?

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I give you:

Jocky Scott

Alex Miller

Archie Knox

Craig Brown

Jim Duffy

Jim Jefferies

Don Mackay

Jimmy Nicholl

 

all elder statesmen. Do they need to be?

 

 

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I suppose the need for a DOF will depend entirely on who is appointed as manager, I would imagine a rookie like Jim Goodwin might appreciate and benefit from one but someone like Tommy Wright wouldn't. From your selection I think I would go for Jim Duffy 

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Because it's an unusual set-up in Scotland we would need to make sure the DoF and manager are very compatible to avoid conflict.

Jefferies/McCann for example might have worked out because the trust would have been there from the start.

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It was interesting to hear JN respond to the questions (in the 30 min video from Dens) regarding possible DoF. They appear to have used guys like Craig Brown periodically for advice, but it doesn't sound like a DoF is a short-term option....I guess it would delay hiring a new manager, as we'd presumably want the DoF to be very much key to the selection process?

JN suggested that, if they liked a less-experienced younger manager, they'd consider pairing him with a DoF-type / Jeffries-type assistant.  

[by this I mean they'd be looking positively at a young manager who had already found his potential 'mentor' to work with him....I don't mean we'd hire the mentor independently]

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1 hour ago, Cobra said:

Because it's an unusual set-up in Scotland we would need to make sure the DoF and manager are very compatible to avoid conflict.

Jefferies/McCann for example might have worked out because the trust would have been there from the start.

I can't see us getting a DoF in, its basically an admission that they're not ready as a manager. If we had a DoF in first then the First Team Coach would be applying for that job but I'm not sure we're 'mature' enough behind the scenes yet for it to work.

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The Dof does not necessarily need to be an elder gentleman, part of his role should be going to watch  players play football throughout the country, I can’t see someone in there 50s or 60s being enthused about watching reserves or 18s.

The role is needed to stop the likes of Moussa,Yordi, Madianga and countless others being signed over a best bits video.

knowing the Scottish market and the going rate for players is also essential.

 

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2 hours ago, DarkBlueKnight said:

Age gives the role a certain gravitas I think

Don Mackay will have more gravitas than you can shake a stick at - he's 79! 

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For me the DoF needs to be the person who ensures we stick to a set strategy for player recruitment regardless of who the manager is and therefore protects the club from continual high player turnover. Looking at what has happened over the last 3-4 years, its almost become imperative that we get a DoF  asap!!!

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If we need a Director of Football, then it means that the manager should be no where near the club as he won't be good enough.

DOF is just a fancy word for baby sitter.

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23 minutes ago, TheDarkBlues said:

If we need a Director of Football, then it means that the manager should be no where near the club as he won't be good enough.

DOF is just a fancy word for baby sitter.

It's a wage we don't need at Dundee. 

A good manager with contacts and who has a good & his own backroom team (Assistant, scout etc..) will not need a DOF. 

Also, a DOF won't be useful if we have a manager that doesn't want one or is too stubborn to use him. Didn't Nelms rule out having a DOF this week? If a manager wants to seek advice, pick up the phone. 

We need a manager that has experience of rebuilding teams and has contacts. We need a manager for the long term. It's a very attractive job Dundee; A new manager can bring in their type of players instantly without waiting a season or two. New training ground and in the future, new stadium (if they last that long).  They should finish at least in the play-offs (Csaba did with United...) and have a great chance of instant success (promotion). Dundee have a good budget, stable ownership and an excellent fan base. 

Gary Naysmith and Kenny Miller both stated, its a very attractive job for managers out of work, but also in work. 

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1 hour ago, GregTeamDee said:

It's a wage we don't need at Dundee. 

A good manager with contacts and who has a good & his own backroom team (Assistant, scout etc..) will not need a DOF. 

Also, a DOF won't be useful if we have a manager that doesn't want one or is too stubborn to use him. Didn't Nelms rule out having a DOF this week? If a manager wants to seek advice, pick up the phone. 

We need a manager that has experience of rebuilding teams and has contacts. We need a manager for the long term. It's a very attractive job Dundee; A new manager can bring in their type of players instantly without waiting a season or two. New training ground and in the future, new stadium (if they last that long).  They should finish at least in the play-offs (Csaba did with United...) and have a great chance of instant success (promotion). Dundee have a good budget, stable ownership and an excellent fan base. 

Gary Naysmith and Kenny Miller both stated, its a very attractive job for managers out of work, but also in work. 

Its a wage we do need and it would probably saves us money long term. So much money wasted because we are having to continually pay out unwanted players contracts  and this is because each manager is admirably given a decent budget and then free reign to do what they want recruitment wise with it.

If we had more control and a set strategy this would gives us far greater chance of success longer term.

The days of a DoF being unworkable for managers are long gone and its becoming common place partly as  a result of the need for more financial prudence from clubs in Player Recruitment. On a much larger scale Huddersfield and Norwich have seen success beyond their expenditure comparative to rest of league largely down to a really good DoF btw the same guy!

 

 

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6 minutes ago, dun_d_rob said:

Its a wage we do need and it would probably saves us money long term. So much money wasted because we are having to continually pay out unwanted players contracts  and this is because each manager is admirably given a decent budget and then free reign to do what they want recruitment wise with it.

If we had more control and a set strategy this would gives us far greater chance of success longer term.

The days of a DoF being unworkable for managers are long gone and its becoming common place partly as  a result of the need for more financial prudence from clubs in Player Recruitment. On a much larger scale Huddersfield and Norwich have seen success beyond their expenditure comparative to rest of league largely down to a really good DoF btw the same guy!

 

 

The club could just tell any new applicant that they'll not have free reign to move on any and all players and they have to make do with what they have. In fairness to FPS, its their cash they're ploughing in so if they're happy then who are we to complain.

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17 minutes ago, dun_d_rob said:

Its a wage we do need and it would probably saves us money long term. So much money wasted because we are having to continually pay out unwanted players contracts  and this is because each manager is admirably given a decent budget and then free reign to do what they want recruitment wise with it.

If we had more control and a set strategy this would gives us far greater chance of success longer term.

The days of a DoF being unworkable for managers are long gone and its becoming common place partly as  a result of the need for more financial prudence from clubs in Player Recruitment. On a much larger scale Huddersfield and Norwich have seen success beyond their expenditure comparative to rest of league largely down to a really good DoF btw the same guy!

 

 

Who's to say a DOF would pick the right players? Whats wrong with a scout? 

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2 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

The club could just tell any new applicant that they'll not have free reign to move on any and all players and they have to make do with what they have. In fairness to FPS, its their cash they're ploughing in so if they're happy then who are we to complain.

Doesn't solve the problem as they would still look to bring in their own style and players which may not be a good fit to what we currently . Hence the need for DoF to oversee that ensuring any signings fit a criteria and long term strategy that is not solely reliant on current manager. Surely we want the club to be successful and not just waste money regardless of who it is being funded by! Not having to pay off a contract or two could mean more money for a  better quality player.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, GregTeamDee said:

Who's to say a DOF would pick the right players? Whats wrong with a scout? 

ffs no guarantees on getting the right player regardless who's decision it is as there never is but would cut out the turnover of players solely down to each managers personal preferences.

Look at mess Mcintyre has left with players he bought largely cause they played for him before. Thankfully relegation could help us to get rid of ex Ross County players for no cost down to clauses but perhaps a DoF may have said no to JM on 34 year old defenders with no match fitness or ten a penny hard working strikers that don't score goals and asked to move on to other targets.

Edited by dun_d_rob

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14 minutes ago, dun_d_rob said:

 

Look at mess Mcintyre has left with players he bought largely cause he played for them before. Thankfully relegation could help us to get rid for no cost down to clauses but perhaps a DoF may have said no to JM on 34 year old defenders with no match fitness or ten a penny hard working strikers that don't score goals and asked to move on to other targets.

Totally agree that we have to stop rebuilding a team every season, I've been advocating that for months. But I think that could just come down to the board cutting back the budget or saying 'no' to a manager rather than just giving him money after money. I can't see us having a DOF, but if we did, then you need to decide the route/plan that you want to go down and stick to it, even if it meant lack of results. You couldn't start changing the DOF and manager every season either. 

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6 minutes ago, dun_d_rob said:

Doesn't solve the problem as they would still look to bring in their own style and players which may not be a good fit to what we currently . Hence the need for DoF to oversee that ensuring any signings fit a criteria and long term strategy that is not solely reliant on current manager. Surely we want the club to be successful and not just waste money regardless of who it is being funded by! Not having to pay off a contract or two could mean more money for a  better quality player.

 

 

Personally I don't have a strong view either way but you seem dead set on trying to make a DOF essential. If the CEO is employing a manager he can chose one that is willing to go with the players that are at the club or if he fancies trying something different then he can give the new guy more cash. Putting an extra level of manager in isn't always the answer.

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Just to add I wouldn't want DoF to be the one top be picking all signing targets and more of a collaborative process with Manager!

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Just now, chomp my root said:

Personally I don't have a strong view either way but you seem dead set on trying to make a DOF essential. If the CEO is employing a manager he can chose one that is willing to go with the players that are at the club or if he fancies trying something different then he can give the new guy more cash. Putting an extra level of manager in isn't always the answer.

I think its an important step to be honest and we need to try something different. We really need a strategy or identity that is long term rather just ripping it up and starting again each season.

The strategy doesn't have to be based on Barcelona style passing game and we only sign players that fit to this. It could be as simple as we 90% of time we make a signing  the player has to fit a criteria such as age, certain attributes etc. and say we focus on Lower Leagues players for addtl value.  It can be anything you want it to be and changeable depending on environment your in but not linked solely to the preference of  whatever manager we have at the time

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13 minutes ago, dun_d_rob said:

I think its an important step to be honest and we need to try something different. We really need a strategy or identity that is long term rather just ripping it up and starting again each season.

The strategy doesn't have to be based on Barcelona style passing game and we only sign players that fit to this. It could be as simple as we 90% of time we make a signing  the player has to fit a criteria such as age, certain attributes etc. and say we focus on Lower Leagues players for addtl value.  It can be anything you want it to be and changeable depending on environment your in but not linked solely to the preference of  whatever manager we have at the time

The owner (CEO really in our case) will ultimately dictate how we play, he signs a manager and gives him a budget. I still don't know why we would need yet another level of management. 

Just a bit of hindsight but it was maybe a case of our owners being a bit naive and taking their time to come to the place where they are now, ie not rushing into things, having their 'criteria' and they've built up a network of people they now know and trust in the Scottish game. If the owner (CEO) is now more comfortable in his skin he might have a better idea of what his (therefor the club's) long term strategy is. 

We'll see what we get and its frustrating when the wheels come off with alarming regularity but ultimately its FPS that are putting their hands in their pockets, if they want to put a fellow American, Mr M Mouse in charge, and have his canine amigo as DOF they can. Whoever they pick, I can pretty much guarantee that he won't be universally accepted on here. :lol:

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There are plenty of pros & cons to the concept of having someone in a 'DoF' role, and also plenty of examples of very different roles that a DoF might have.

Nelms didn't totally dismiss the idea, but he did make the point that he'd be the one appointing a DoF who would report to him, so it would be his fault if it went wrong, just as it is just now with hiring managers. He also mentioned talking to Craig Brown a few times, so he's clearly not opposed to the idea of a 'mentor' for matters where certain advice & expertise is required. Broon's role at Aberdeen, for example, isn't full-time, isn't called DoF, but whatever he does seems to fit in quite well with DM & Docherty's roles.

With foreign owners, albeit that JN partly grew up in Scotland & had some involvement as a lower-level player here, we're perhaps a bit short on some aspects of expertise, and access to guys like Craig Brown / Archie / Jocky is a sensible route to take. 

Size of the club isn't necessarily a key factor in whether or not to have some sort of DoF role either. I know the arabs have hired one....and even with low crowds & rumours of budget cuts & players leaving, ICT have recently hired Scot Gardiner.

The one current factor that has made me think a DoF might be a good move, is the amount of time JN is/will be devoting to the Camperdown project, but it wouldn't necessarily require a full-time appointment. 

  

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21 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

The owner (CEO really in our case) will ultimately dictate how we play, he signs a manager and gives him a budget. I still don't know why we would need yet another level of management. 

Just a bit of hindsight but it was maybe a case of our owners being a bit naive and taking their time to come to the place where they are now, ie not rushing into things, having their 'criteria' and they've built up a network of people they now know and trust in the Scottish game. If the owner (CEO) is now more comfortable in his skin he might have a better idea of what his (therefor the club's) long term strategy is. 

We'll see what we get and its frustrating when the wheels come off with alarming regularity but ultimately its FPS that are putting their hands in their pockets, if they want to put a fellow American, Mr M Mouse in charge, and have his canine amigo as DOF they can. Whoever they pick, I can pretty much guarantee that he won't be universally accepted on here. :lol:

I think your totally missing the point. I don't think we would be debating the need for a DoF if the CEO was more than capable of carrying out that strategy. Nothing to say Nelms wont become capable but I don't see anything at this time that suggest he is or he has the right kind of contacts.

I don't really understand your reluctance in terms adding another level of management, which it may well be but it would hopefully be adding more than just a chain in command such as experience, knowledge, contacts etc. which is surely beneficial.

Edited by dun_d_rob

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1 minute ago, dun_d_rob said:

I think your totally missing the point. I don't think we would be debating the need for a DoF if the CEO was more than capable of carrying out that strategy. Nothing to say Nelms wont become capable but I don't see anything at this time that suggest he is or he has the right kind of contacts.

I don't really understand your reluctance in terms adding another level of management, which it may well be but it would hopefully be adding more than just a chain in command such as experience, knowledge, contacts etc. which is surely beneficial.

What if the DOF moves and we get a new one in with a different 'vision' or he's just crap (in the CEO's) eyes and gets his jotters and we get that different 'vision' just for different reasons.... I get your point I'm just not sure its a one size fits all solution. You seem to view the DOF as a 'constant' when they're just another layer of management, same as any other.

I'm using an extreme example to make a point so forgive me but if Mourinho tossed his hat in the ring for the Dens gig and we said aye but only if you've got Jocky (or whoever you fancy) riding shotgun in the DOF role he just might knock us back. You seem to be pinning all your hopes on it, if we go down that route fair enough but it doesn't look like it and I'm not surprised. 

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