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Napper

Third Time Lucky. ?

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I'd view Hartley as a reasonable, sensible , appointment, based on his record... ok , the wheels fell off and that was unfortunate... however, the last two managers have been disastrous.. (I'm not including McCann's 5 game saving grace) ..surely, the law of averages says, unless Nelms goes absolutely left field, the next one has to work out?.. I want promotion, but, a team that actually wins more than it loses in the Championship is a bottom line requirement?

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The problem is Napper if you take the Dabs and the managers they have had then look at St M and Hamilton the Dabs have appointed experienced managers the others have appointed rookie managers and have preformed better including McIntyre for us it’s not very easy to get the right man 😩

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Hartley is our best manager since Duffy impressed with Bonetti's players but PM came to Dens at the perfect time. He'd excelled at Alloa and arrived at Dundee as one of Scotland's hottest young managers.

Something went horribly wrong though from 2016 onwards. Between them, the board and the manager made some atrocious decisions and we've never really recovered.

Since Hartley (reportedly) turned down Cardiff his career has nosedived. He described Hemmings and Stewart as irreplaceable (I felt that was defeatist and sent the wrong message even if it was accurate). 

I would love to see him restore his credibility but I don't think he should return to the Dundee dugout this summer.

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Third time? How many on our list of managers in the last 50 years since 1970 would you consider a success? Out of the 24 (excluding McPake obviously) I would struggle to count them on the fingers of one hand.

Manager history

  FROM TO
James McPake 13 May, 2019 Present
Jim McIntyre 17 Oct, 2018 13 May, 2019
Neil McCann 19 Apr, 2017 17 Oct, 2018
Paul Hartley 05 Feb, 2014 19 Apr, 2017
John Brown 23 Feb, 2013 03 Feb, 2014
Barry Smith 15 Oct, 2010 20 Feb, 2013
Gordon Chisholm 20 Mar, 2010 15 Oct, 2010
Jocky Scott 30 Oct, 2008 20 Mar, 2010
Alex Rae 24 May, 2006 30 Oct, 2008
Alan Kernaghan 02 Sep, 2005 24 May, 2006
Jim Duffy 04 Jul, 2002 02 Sep, 2005
Ivano Bonetti 10 Jul, 2000 02 Jul, 2002
Jocky Scott 08 Feb, 1998 28 Jun, 2000
John McCormack 01 Jan, 1997 08 Feb, 1998
Jim Duffy 01 Aug, 1993 29 Dec, 1996
Simon Stainrod 01 Dec, 1992 31 May, 1993
Iain Munro 01 Aug, 1991 31 Dec, 1991
Gordon Wallace 01 Aug, 1989 31 May, 1991
Dave Smith 01 Aug, 1988 31 May, 1989
Jocky Scott 01 Aug, 1986 31 May, 1988
Archie Knox 01 Aug, 1984 31 May, 1986
Don Mackay 15 Apr, 1980 31 May, 1984
Tommy Gemmell 01 Jun, 1977 15 Apr, 1980
David White 01 Aug, 1972 31 May, 1977
John Prentice 01 Aug, 1969

31 May, 1972

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Barry, Hartley, Bomber, Rae, Duffy and Scott all had very good spells but most of them left under a cloud.

The last manager who excelled and we wanted to keep was Archie Knox.

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8 minutes ago, Cobra said:

Barry, Hartley, Bomber, Rae, Duffy and Scott all had very good spells but most of them left under a cloud.

The last manager who excelled and we wanted to keep was Archie Knox.

Some of your list had successful periods whilst in charge but how many were outright successes? How many of them went onto bigger and better things?

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1 minute ago, Double Blue said:

Some of your list had successful periods whilst in charge but how many were outright successes? How many of them went onto bigger and better things?

No Dundee manager has ever gone on to bigger and better things as a number one, as far as I'm aware. That said it must have happened if we goo all the way back to the 19th Century.

Off the top of my head, JD managed Hibs for a wee while so he at least did make a step up briefly.

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4 minutes ago, Densparker said:

We won our last major trophy under White.

Was Jim McLean largely responsible for our last trophy or is that a myth?

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5 hours ago, Cobra said:

Was Jim McLean largely responsible for our last trophy or is that a myth?

Story I heard was that some of the team left the official party, with cup, and went to Wee Jum's. 

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Just now, BCram said:

Story I heard was that some of the team left the official party, with cup, and went to Wee Jum's. 

I think that story is more fact than rumour and the manager at the time punished the players for doing that.

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5 hours ago, Cobra said:

Was Jim McLean largely responsible for our last trophy or is that a myth?

Myth. He's a DAB.

It was White that moulded us into a trophy winning team.  

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4 minutes ago, Dondeh said:

Myth. He's a DAB.

It was White that moulded us into a trophy winning team.  

You were around, I wasn't, and I appreciate you giving me your assessment of things Dondeh.

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15 minutes ago, Cobra said:

You were around, I wasn't, and I appreciate you giving me your assessment of things Dondeh.

White gave us the steel of John Prentice classy side.

Davie White won us our last major trophy.

Not the DAB McLean.

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Just now, Dondeh said:

White gave us the steel of John Prentice classy side.

Davie White won us our last major trophy.

Not the DAB McLean.

What was Jim McLean like as a Dundee player? Is it true the fans took a dislike to him?

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2 minutes ago, Cobra said:

What was Jim McLean like as a Dundee player? Is it true the fans took a dislike to him?

He claims he was booed at times and on occasion gave them pelters back. He played as an inside forward with George McLean and George scored more goals. Jim was a wee bit slow for a forward in my view.

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1 minute ago, Billy Campbell's Ghost said:

He claims he was booed at times and on occasion gave them pelters back. He played as an inside forward with George McLean and George scored more goals. Jim was a wee bit slow for a forward in my view.

Thanks for sharing your memories.

On another note, how good was Billy Campbell? I saw a glimpse of him on Youtube and never mind being a class above Freddie Daquin, he looked like a class above Neil McCann? Is that fair to say?

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6 minutes ago, Cobra said:

What was Jim McLean like as a Dundee player? Is it true the fans took a dislike to him?

Powder puff inside forward.  He got pelters and deserved it. 

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8 hours ago, Cobra said:

Hartley is our best manager since Duffy impressed with Bonetti's players but PM came to Dens at the perfect time. He'd excelled at Alloa and arrived at Dundee as one of Scotland's hottest young managers.

Something went horribly wrong though from 2016 onwards. Between them, the board and the manager made some atrocious decisions and we've never really recovered.

 

PH signings got worse each window  from good to rank rotten plus he tried playing a style of football that players werent capable of playing

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Just now, Dondeh said:

Powder puff inside forward.  He got pelters and deserved it. 

Interesting. I do wonder though, would guys like Jim McLean and Vince Mennie look good in the current Dundee given how much standards have dropped? That might well be an impossible question to answer.

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TBH Jim Mclean wasn't a great player but neither was Ferguson... Both worked hard as players but never quite cut it however as managers... Well, that's another story 

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I think Jim McLean and Alex Ferguson were of the same ilk. They treated some guys like absolute sh*t. I don't think the United players actually liked McLean. His style was just very effective in the 80s before players had power.

If McLean did stay at Dundee I doubt he would have won many trophies. United were able to hang on to guys like Hegarty and Sturrock because of the Pools business while we had to let guys like Fraser, Brown and Ferguson leave to pay the bills. Feel free to correct me if I've got that wrong.

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11 minutes ago, Cobra said:

I think Jim McLean and Alex Ferguson were of the same ilk. They treated some guys like absolute sh*t. I don't think the United players actually liked McLean. His style was just very effective in the 80s before players had power.

If McLean did stay at Dundee I doubt he would have won many trophies. United were able to hang on to guys like Hegarty and Sturrock because of the Pools business while we had to let guys like Fraser, Brown and Ferguson leave to pay the bills. Feel free to correct me if I've got that wrong.

Jerry Kerr was more of a visionary figure in the 70's and saw the potential in Mclean as someone with a more modern and radical approach to management something that the likes of Bett and Gellaty felt threatened by and wouldn't accept. The success of the 60's had long gone but unfortunately we were still stuck in the past and with no real dynamics in the boardroom to move things on it was always going to be difficult for the likes of Mclean to get his way. Jim Mclean clearly knew this and was probably the main reason why he crossed the road, in short his style at the time didn't suit us but I'm sure had our board given him the chance we would have had the same success that United had during the 80's... Just my opinion. 

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5 minutes ago, Wackyjim said:

Jerry Kerr was more of a visionary figure in the 70's and saw the potential in Mclean as someone with a more modern and radical approach to management something that the likes of Bett and Gellaty felt threatened by and wouldn't accept. The success of the 60's had long gone but unfortunately we were still stuck in the past and with no real dynamics in the boardroom to move things on it was always going to be difficult for the likes of Mclean to get his way. Jim Mclean clearly knew this and was probably the main reason why he crossed the road, in short his style at the time didn't suit us but I'm sure had our board given him the chance we would have had the same success that United had during the 80's... Just my opinion. 

Cheers Jim. I appreciate you sharing your take on things.

Must have been very different back then. No internet. No fanzines. You went to games and spoke to your pals and that was it. 

The hive mentality where fans gradually turn on a manager on social media wasn't possible before the 90s although it maybe wasn't that different. I went to the B&Q Cup final in 1990 and there was a noisy Wallace Out contingent making themselves heard.

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3 minutes ago, Cobra said:

Cheers Jim. I appreciate you sharing your take on things.

Must have been very different back then. No internet. No fanzines. You went to games and spoke to your pals and that was it. 

You've got it spot on Cobra 

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