Re Scott Bain's Fallout At Dens....

[Rebbkintyre]

16 hours ago, WoodStein said:

This Tom English article has just surfaced, with a fair bit about his time at Dens & his departure, thought I'd add it here, rather than in the 'death zone' area.

A couple of bits to quote....

(Bain): "Football has a funny way of cream rising to the top".....I heard him say that after the cup final & wondered what might be going through Rivers' mind 

(English): "Rodgers used to say that, for the life of him, he couldn't understand how any manager could fall out with Bain, who he saw as a model pro."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48542794

 

Scott Bain was a sad loss to the Club. Great to see him be so successful and his ability as a keeper was never in doubt.

[Valentke]

14 minutes ago, cookie said:

I am amazed that he is where he is.   He is not big enough for a top class goalkeeper and consequently he is unable to command his box.

He was responsible for quite a few goals when he was with us because he would not come off his line nor attack the ball.

Funny how we all see things so differently. When we had Hemmings, Stewart and Bain my son asked me who I thought would have the most successful career......Bain was the standout for me and I’m not one bit surprised to see him where he is.

[Sebastiano Nela]

15 hours ago, Cobra said:

It pisses me off that we failed to get either Bain or Kamara sold with a year left on their contract. Both stayed at Dens unhappy, caused disruption and ended up in the first team of one of the Old Firm with Dundee gaining little or nothing.

What disruption did they cause?

[Iain T Campbell]

15 hours ago, Cobra said:

It pisses me off that we failed to get either Bain or Kamara sold with a year left on their contract. Both stayed at Dens unhappy, caused disruption and ended up in the first team of one of the Old Firm with Dundee gaining little or nothing.

I don't think there is any evidence that Kamara caused any disruption. It was not his fault that he was dropped for the Aberdeen game and other players reacted to that and one could not blame them for doing so. Kamara unlike Vain was not a disruptor. He would have stayed on until the end of the season but he was not given that option unfortunately for us.

[Edin_Dee]

A good keeper for us when he came in. No coincidence that was the same time he had something to prove. As soon as he got some plaudits, he thought he was better than he was and his form suffered.

Bain undermined the manager so McCann really had no option but to stamp his authority. Any decent manager would have done the same. The problem, as the article states, was that Bain knew he could do better than Dundee so there was no fear for him in telling McCann where to go.

Dropping Bain actually helped us that season. He had been playing really poorly in the weeks before he was dropped. When Parish came in our performances improved with clean sheets.

The article hits the nail on the head - Bain has got lucky. He's got in that Celtic team because of injuries and in the Scotland team because McGregor retired. He's not in there because of quality. Both Lennon and Clarke will be looking at the goalkeeping position as one that can be improved.

No reason why Bain can't keep improving and go to another level, but I suspect he now thinks he's "made it" so his attitude will probably stop him.

[Cobra]

8 hours ago, Sebastiano Nela said:

What disruption did they cause?

What happened between Bain and the manager during and after the Hamilton game was obviously disruptive while Kamara's alarming body language against Hearts and Celtic suggested he was doing little to improve squad harmony at that time.

My point was it was in the club's interests to get those two sold when they had 12 months left on their deal and as far as I'm aware we didn't receive even a derisory offer for either player. It's frustrating that they went from failing to generate a transfer bid to playing for the Old Firm within a year. If they're good enough to play for Rangers and Celtic it surely should be a breeze to get some kind of offer for them when their contract is running down.

[WoodStein]

2 hours ago, Cobra said:

What happened between Bain and the manager during and after the Hamilton game was obviously disruptive while Kamara's alarming body language against Hearts and Celtic suggested he was doing little to improve squad harmony at that time.

My point was it was in the club's interests to get those two sold when they had 12 months left on their deal and as far as I'm aware we didn't receive even a derisory offer for either player. It's frustrating that they went from failing to generate a transfer bid to playing for the Old Firm within a year. If they're good enough to play for Rangers and Celtic it surely should be a breeze to get some kind of offer for them when their contract is running down.

I think, when a manager publicly & repeatedly trashes the player's reputation & character, he's probably killed the potential transfer market, which for us is basically England or the OF. The OF are masters of the waiting game, sitting back to see if anyone bites, and if not, picking off the carcasses like the vultures they are.

I guess Bain's situation was fairly well-known, but I recently heard (source generally very reliable) JM told Kamara to pack his kit & not return to Dens, a good while before we decided to offload him. I doubt that would have done anything to help the attitude of the rest of the squad.

Water under the bridge, but the previous season was the time to try to market him...definitely something the Club, rather than the managers, needs to consider, in future.....as Motherwell are doing with Turnbull....£2m & rising. 

[Cobra]

2 minutes ago, WoodStein said:

I think, when a manager publicly & repeatedly trashes the player's reputation & character, he's probably killed the potential transfer market, which for us is basically England or the OF. The OF are masters of the waiting game, sitting back to see if anyone bites, and if not, picking off the carcasses like the vultures they are.

I guess Bain's situation was fairly well-known, but I recently heard (source generally very reliable) JM told Kamara to pack his kit & not return to Dens, a good while before we decided to offload him. I doubt that would have done anything to help the attitude of the rest of the squad.

Water under the bridge, but the previous season was the time to try to market him...definitely something the Club, rather than the managers, needs to consider, in future.....as Motherwell are doing with Turnbull....£2m & rising. 

You are probably right about Bain's reputation being trashed. Celtic effectively took him on trial for a few months to see if his attitude was rotten before handing him a long-term deal.

We'll never know what happened with Kamara but it does seem McIntyre handled him badly. For the player to visibly show his disillusionment on the park in high-profile games suggests something was seriously not right in the dressing room.

Fair point about the Old Firm. Celtic were willing to risk losing out on John McGinn by sitting and waiting to see if Hibs would get desperate and slash the asking price. They probably regret that now.

It would be nice for Dundee to have a textbook purchase and sale. Sign a quality young player... get a year or two out of them and then flog them for £2m-£3m while they still have a couple of years left on their contract. Easier said than done though.

[WoodStein]

15 minutes ago, Cobra said:

It would be nice for Dundee to have a textbook purchase and sale. Sign a quality young player... get a year or two out of them and then flog them for £2m-£3m while they still have a couple of years left on their contract. Easier said than done though.

It is, of course.

Motherwell have done some fairly good business for a while now, both young guys & some of the players they've brought in. Maybe there's an element of luck involved, but maybe there's also a bigger element of good business planning involved. I think you need a good co-operative relationship between the management (prepared to sell good players & bring in/promote replacements) & the board (advising on the selling/re-stocking strategy) to achieve this....maybe we've been changing managers too fast for this to develop.

It would be good to see us head into a period of stability, and with the plans for the academy/youth teams starting to show potential for longer-term 'production line' to feed the main squad & eventually sell on. Maybe a bit optimistic at the moment.....but I've been waiting 45 years for club to develop the next wee Gordon Strachan & get a decent fee this time!  

[barkblue]

15 hours ago, Huggs66 said:

BB, a good keeper on his day, ego to big for his bootsand his perceived talent, at Dens we have been blessed with some very good goalkeepers, Ally Donaldson, Thomson Allan, Bobby Geddes and of course big Rab, IMO he has not passed them in the ranking of good DFC keepers. Scott Who ??. 

I don't really get the animosity towards Bain. He got it tight from a section of our support and basically tell them to get a grip. I don't and never did see the issue with that other than both sides of it being cringeworthy. 

Agree that he's nowhere near as good as those other keepers, but then the side we had under Duffy that couldn't get out of the first division is a mile better than any of those that we've had in the top flight for the last three years, and it's just indicative of how damn average the standard is these days.

[Cobra]

57 minutes ago, barkblue said:

I don't really get the animosity towards Bain.

Was he not pictured coming out of Dens laughing when Hartley was sacked? I'm not 100% sure if I got that right but the way he gloated in the press about McCann getting sacked suggests the guy is a bit of a dick. He was at it again yesterday saying "cream rises to the top". He's going to look a bit stupid if the cream curdles.

Wouldn't say I feel animosity towards him but he seems a right smug b*****d and I wouldn't shed any tears if his career goes south.

I really do wish he'd stop talking about DFC and NM. His Alan Partridge-style "needless to say I got the last laugh" tabloid articles are really quite irritating... You've got your contract at Celtic. Forget about Neil McCann and STFU.

[barkblue]

16 minutes ago, Cobra said:

Was he not pictured coming out of Dens laughing when Hartley was sacked? I'm not 100% sure if I got that right but the way he gloated in the press about McCann getting sacked suggests the guy is a bit of a dick. He was at it again yesterday saying "cream rises to the top". He's going to look a bit stupid if the cream curdles.

Wouldn't say I feel animosity towards him but he seems a right smug b*****d and I wouldn't shed any tears if his career goes south.

I really do wish he'd stop talking about DFC and NM. His Alan Partridge-style "needless to say I got the last laugh" tabloid articles are really quite irritating... You've got your contract at Celtic. Forget about Neil McCann and STFU.

Can't say I remember that regarding Hartley. You might be right but it doesn't ring a bell with me.

From Bain's point of view he was done over by McCann, so while not nice, there's plenty of us who like to see folk get what we see as their 'comeuppance'. As I said, I couldn't care what happens to the guy from here career wise, but I think most of the problems Dees have with him is because he shushed guys in the crowd who were shouting obscenities at him. Personally, and I know it's not a popular opinion, I think he was right to do so because they were belters (same as the guys who shouted abuse at Greg Stewart before he left), even if I knew his time at Dens was basically done once the crowd turned on him. 

It just felt/feels like an awful lot of double standards on the go towards the guy. We love to GIRFUY to plenty of ex-Dees or other players but when they give it back we get the petted lip out. (that's not aimed at you Cobra). That's never sat well with me.

Oh and for the record, he certainly comes across as a bit of a dick.