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Is Jack Hamilton's Point On Managerial Stability Fair? (Courier Article)

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In a few words, I think it is ... As much as few would dispute there was a real need for DFC to dismiss their managers & employ  their third manager in the space of 12 months, what an effect that must have had on the players, as they looked on to the "going-ons" behind the scene. Although it could be said ultimately the responsibility for points & performances is with the players on the park on the day, I'd be surprised if the players were totally focused on the job they were meant & expected to do. In our two managers over that period, leading up to James McPake, we had two managers with as much a diverse approaches to the game as it was possible ...

And without going into any detail (again) about their managerial qualities or merits ... or lack of, it does look like (to me anyway) that in James McPake we may have found someone at last, whose more common sense & down to earth approach & temprement suggests, we may well have found someone, who is steady, successful & proves to be a "stayer"

I accept he has yet to prove himself in this role ... But I believe there is a lot in him up to this point for us, & players, & his supporting coaching team to like ...

Any views on this, or what we may expect in the season ahead? 

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Agree. Management is part of the team that makes a successful football club. I think we have had an excellent example from the Deefiant season fairly recently which demonstrated what can be done when everyone is together.

Think most new manager bounces come from the initial hope that the existing players will get a chance to prove themselves and the new manager sells that message and delivers it. It goes pear shape when that trust is broken and new players are needed because the current ones are deemed not good enough. 

Hoping that McPake signs players who have the ability to play in the roles he assigns to them, rather than signs players who are "projects". His work with the youths must be helpful in this. Hamilton gets a chance to redeem his career, really hope he makes it.

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I think the biggest difference we will see when comparing McCann/Macintyre with McPake is the man management of the players.

McCann wasn't able to deal with big characters in the dressing room. If he had managed to form a good relationship with Scott Bain and Scott Allan then we may well have had a good season in McCann's first year. I think he probably lost the respect of the players the way he regularly flew off the handle in the dressing room and criticised their standards in public. One of his first games against a Highland League side (forget which one) he slammed the players for only winning 2-0. Seemed a strange thing to do.

Macintyre took the view that he didn't want any of McCann's players to play. This included (as far as I could tell) making little to no effort to try and persuade Kamara to stay for a further 6 months. I firmly believe we would have stayed up if we had kept Kamara and had a manager with good man management skills. Even the likes of Kerr, McGowan and O'Dea became bit part players. Granted their form wasn't great but we really needed at least some players on the park you could rely on to give their all.

You only need to look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie to see that a massive turnaround of players is not necessary to get average players to produce results.

I like that McPake has tried to keep the few players who are still here from last season. There is clear logic in the type of signings he has made. That has not always been the case in the last couple of seasons.

The off field stuff McPake seems to be getting right so far. The big question mark is what is he like tactically? Can he drill the players to perform on the park? Can he tweak things mid game when it's not working? We'll not know that until a few games in.

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15 minutes ago, Edin_Dee said:

I think the biggest difference we will see when comparing McCann/Macintyre with McPake is the man management of the players.

McCann wasn't able to deal with big characters in the dressing room. If he had managed to form a good relationship with Scott Bain and Scott Allan then we may well have had a good season in McCann's first year. I think he probably lost the respect of the players the way he regularly flew off the handle in the dressing room and criticised their standards in public. One of his first games against a Highland League side (forget which one) he slammed the players for only winning 2-0. Seemed a strange thing to do.

Macintyre took the view that he didn't want any of McCann's players to play. This included (as far as I could tell) making little to no effort to try and persuade Kamara to stay for a further 6 months. I firmly believe we would have stayed up if we had kept Kamara and had a manager with good man management skills. Even the likes of Kerr, McGowan and O'Dea became bit part players. Granted their form wasn't great but we really needed at least some players on the park you could rely on to give their all.

You only need to look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie to see that a massive turnaround of players is not necessary to get average players to produce results.

I like that McPake has tried to keep the few players who are still here from last season. There is clear logic in the type of signings he has made. That has not always been the case in the last couple of seasons.

The off field stuff McPake seems to be getting right so far. The big question mark is what is he like tactically? Can he drill the players to perform on the park? Can he tweak things mid game when it's not working? We'll not know that until a few games in.

Yes it is early however there are signs that McGowan is like a new signing, 2 solid games so far and a goal today, so many time he appeared missing last season, speaks volumes for what is going on with the team at this time. 

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oh that's why he flogged three goals against St Mirren that a half decent amateur goalie would have saved!

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In any industry the boss can have a big impact on morale which can have a knock on effect on 'productivity'. If a player thinks a new manager is looking to move him on he needs to think about himself, he's not going to go the extra mile and risk damaging himself if its going to make him unemployable for a while (for example). A new boss might not take the time to find out who needs a bollocking and who needs a cuddle to get the best out of them and if he goes straight for the bollocking then the ones that need the cuddle won't benefit. Its tricky when you're dealing with people, promoting from within can have benefits, in this case JMP will know what he's got and who needs the cuddles, the flipside is he's in a new role and might struggle to change the dynamic with people he's worked with (talking generally, I've no idea), potentially its why Kenny Miller is away, maybe not wanting to work for a guy who 'stole his job' in his eyes, we're quite egotistical creatures. 

As long as JMP gets more right than wrong and learns from his experiences then that's all we can ask, from the outside, it looks like he's going about things well. He seems to be a guy who's as open and honest as he can be when doing interviews so if he's like that behind the scenes with players then that will hopefully settle players fears too. The Deefiant season has been given as an example and while we'll not see that level of commitment again I expect, having the players looking forward to coming in to work helps, us not getting on their backs at the first miss pass helps too of course.

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21 minutes ago, Gowrie Dee 1962 said:

oh that's why he flogged three goals against St Mirren that a half decent amateur goalie would have saved!

Seeing as Hamilton appears to be firmly in the new managers plans imo it would probably be of benefit to everyone associated with DFC that we start again with a clean slate. Hamilton hasn't become a bad goalkeeper and there is likely something going on that most of us punters aren't aware of that has contributed to him performing below the standards he's previously set. There's been speculation that he has, at times, struggled for confidence. Harking back to past mistakes won't help build his confidence back up again that's for certain.

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3 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Seeing as Hamilton appears to be firmly in the new managers plans imo it would probably be of benefit to everyone associated with DFC that we start again with a clean slate. Hamilton hasn't become a bad goalkeeper and there is likely something going on that most of us punters aren't aware of that have contributed to him performing below the standards he's previously set. There's been speculation that he has, at times, struggled for confidence. Harking back to past mistakes won't help build his confidence back up again that's for certain.

Depends why you go to the football Rev, if you like a good old BOOOO and/or shout abuse at strangers then I hope they get something from it, as you say, its not too likely to benefit our players if its aimed at them. We should run a book on who our most vilified player is this season, I reckon Curran will pip Hamilton to win the crown.

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6 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

Depends why you go to the football Rev, if you like a good old BOOOO and/or shout abuse at strangers then I hope they get something from it, as you say, its not too likely to benefit our players if its aimed at them. We should run a book on who our most vilified player is this season, I reckon Curran will pip Hamilton to win the crown.

Got a bit of a bee in my bonnet re Hamilton to be honest. The stuff that's doing the rounds is a bit unfair on the lad imo. Two guys next to me at Brechin were ripping him up during the warm up then a guy at work, who hasn't been to a game for as long as I've known him, which is close to 10 years, claimed we needed to replace Hamilton for no real reason other than because he'd heard that he wasn't any good. It's just jumping on the bandwagon stuff and you'll hear stuff like he's the worst keeper in living memory and such sh**e. I agree though Curran probably gets it a bit tighter, I'm not a big fan of that either, the difference with him is I don't think he'll be here long term whereas I think Hamilton will. If JMcP can get new strikers in then I think Curran will maybe move on.

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16 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Got a bit of a bee in my bonnet re Hamilton to be honest. The stuff that's doing the rounds is a bit unfair on the lad imo. Two guys next to me at Brechin were ripping him up during the warm up then a guy at work, who hasn't been to a game for as long as I've known him, which is close to 10 years, claimed we needed to replace Hamilton for no real reason other than because he'd heard that he wasn't any good. It's just jumping on the bandwagon stuff and you'll hear stuff like he's the worst keeper in living memory and such sh**e. I agree though Curran probably gets it a bit tighter, I'm not a big fan of that either, the difference with him is I don't think he'll be here long term whereas I think Hamilton will. If JMcP can get new strikers in then I think Curran will maybe move on.

Well, if everyone else thinks it I should too. :lol: I'm not a fan of circle jerks myself, even if I agree with them. Saying that, the whole tribal aspect of football seems to appeal to a lot of people, I don't mind a laugh about it but for some people you'd think your average Arab is from another planet, not next door. 

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1 hour ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Seeing as Hamilton appears to be firmly in the new managers plans imo it would probably be of benefit to everyone associated with DFC that we start again with a clean slate. Hamilton hasn't become a bad goalkeeper and there is likely something going on that most of us punters aren't aware of that has contributed to him performing below the standards he's previously set. There's been speculation that he has, at times, struggled for confidence. Harking back to past mistakes won't help build his confidence back up again that's for certain.

If we are serious about challenging for promotion at the first attempt, should we really be starting the season with a keeper low on confidence?

I’m all for McPake giving Hamilton a clean slate (it will actually be his second clean slate from McPake after his St Mirren blunders), but a nervy keeper generates a nervy support which generates nervousness all round. It’s a vicious cycle we don’t really need. He simply has to hit the ground running from game 1. 

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Gents what keeper would be confident with the defence he had playing in front of him last season, I think we were able to destroy Dieng in the short time he was here, a number of us didn’t rate him either , a number were glad to see him go, yet he has just signed a new deal. Let’s be fair if Hamilton cannot built confidence on the basis of the management team, back room staff and the players in front of him now, he never will.

He has the cup games to demonstrate this before it may force McPake’s hand.

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25 minutes ago, DFC1974 said:

If we are serious about challenging for promotion at the first attempt, should we really be starting the season with a keeper low on confidence?

Can't we work on building his confidence?. 

That's the whole point I'm making though, I've speculated that Hamilton may be low on confidence and all of a sudden were going into a season with Hamilton single handedly unsettling everyone in the ground. We've then got the clean slate thing. Has he actually been given a clean slate or the two that you seem to be keen on?.

Loads of sh**e doing the rounds to be honest.

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1 minute ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Can't we work on building his confidence?. 

We probably can, but is this something that can be done outside of the pressure of a ‘real’ match? The last game of the season was a nothing game and yet 2 (arguably 3) goals were needlessly given away. Do we go to Dunfermline and accept the same as part of the confidence rebuilding process?

As I said, I’m happy for another clean slate but there will be no ‘adjustment’ time from me. Hamilton needs to start the season fully focused.  Sorry if this sounds harsh! 

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2 hours ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Seeing as Hamilton appears to be firmly in the new managers plans imo it would probably be of benefit to everyone associated with DFC that we start again with a clean slate.

I don't think I have been overly critical of Hamilton ... (On the basis of I've got more mellow as I got older, hopefully that is not now in meh nature) :)

Nevertheless I am still not certain, there is not better out there. That said, your comment above is correct Rev, so hope I'm proved wrong in my views.

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Jack's been managed by three managers in seven managers. That's chaotic in football and every other industry. Stability is important but I think what's more important is the board making good decisions in the first place.

I like McPake and I like the look of the squad he's building. I'm optimistic about the season but what if this rookie struggles as much as McCann? Where does that leave DFC? Requiring a fourth managerial appointment in under a year? Can this board survive another bad decision? McPake needs to work out for everyone's sake.

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3 hours ago, chomp my root said:

Depends why you go to the football Rev, if you like a good old BOOOO and/or shout abuse at strangers then I hope they get something from it, as you say, its not too likely to benefit our players if its aimed at them. We should run a book on who our most vilified player is this season, I reckon Curran will pip Hamilton to win the crown.

Certainly never been one to be booing any of our players, ever. I might sit there shaking my head or, as a last resort, screaming 'wtf are you back playing at' but that is it. With regard to JH, I would ask this. When, in his Dundee career (only one season) has the this player looked comfortable and looked like he belonged there.  Shot stopping, coming for balls, ball at his feet and just keeping the ball in the park all come under the bracket C minus to D. Not buying this confidence thing either. Some are saying how could he be judged with what was very in front of him but you could easily turn that around and say how could a defence be judged with him behind them. It is up to him to command his box and command his defence but so far he just hasn't done it. He is going to have to prove himself but in the first games of the season and I am more than willing to be proved wrong.

Apologies for the DD type predictive text nonsense.

 

Edited by Attilio

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6 hours ago, Edin_Dee said:

I think the biggest difference we will see when comparing McCann/Macintyre with McPake is the man management of the players.

McCann wasn't able to deal with big characters in the dressing room. If he had managed to form a good relationship with Scott Bain and Scott Allan then we may well have had a good season in McCann's first year. I think he probably lost the respect of the players the way he regularly flew off the handle in the dressing room and criticised their standards in public. One of his first games against a Highland League side (forget which one) he slammed the players for only winning 2-0. Seemed a strange thing to do.

Macintyre took the view that he didn't want any of McCann's players to play. This included (as far as I could tell) making little to no effort to try and persuade Kamara to stay for a further 6 months. I firmly believe we would have stayed up if we had kept Kamara and had a manager with good man management skills. Even the likes of Kerr, McGowan and O'Dea became bit part players. Granted their form wasn't great but we really needed at least some players on the park you could rely on to give their all.

You only need to look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie to see that a massive turnaround of players is not necessary to get average players to produce results.

I like that McPake has tried to keep the few players who are still here from last season. There is clear logic in the type of signings he has made. That has not always been the case in the last couple of seasons.

The off field stuff McPake seems to be getting right so far. The big question mark is what is he like tactically? Can he drill the players to perform on the park? Can he tweak things mid game when it's not working? We'll not know that until a few games in.

Kamara “left” well before Jim arrived, we need players who see Dundee as a positive move, a place that motivates them- so far so good for me with McPakes signings. I can’t see May fitting into the type of player I describe above....I wish we’d signed Kevin Nisbett. 

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Why do fans boo? I don't think it's a conscious decision. When I went to game in the 90s I used to groan with frustration at every slack pass and grumble ffs at every bad miss. You are desperate for the team to do well but you're powerless so you vent.

In recent years though I just stay detached and take it all in rather than let the action dictate my emotions. It doesn't help the team and in fact it probably increases the chances of a bad result if you are contributing frustration and anger as part of the crowd.

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I think Hamilton's main problem is the fact we paid 100k for him ( that's the figure that's banded about, no idea if it's true) and he came with a big reputation. As Attillio has already pointed out he's struggled with the basics. How many times has he kicked the ball straight out the park? I'm hoping for his sake that it was because we were a mess of a club all last season and he can prove his worth this season. 

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