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Is Jack Hamilton's Point On Managerial Stability Fair? (Courier Article)

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Jack's been managed by three managers in seven managers. That's chaotic in football and every other industry. Stability is important but I think what's more important is the board making good decisions in the first place.

I like McPake and I like the look of the squad he's building. I'm optimistic about the season but what if this rookie struggles as much as McCann? Where does that leave DFC? Requiring a fourth managerial appointment in under a year? Can this board survive another bad decision? McPake needs to work out for everyone's sake.

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3 hours ago, chomp my root said:

Depends why you go to the football Rev, if you like a good old BOOOO and/or shout abuse at strangers then I hope they get something from it, as you say, its not too likely to benefit our players if its aimed at them. We should run a book on who our most vilified player is this season, I reckon Curran will pip Hamilton to win the crown.

Certainly never been one to be booing any of our players, ever. I might sit there shaking my head or, as a last resort, screaming 'wtf are you back playing at' but that is it. With regard to JH, I would ask this. When, in his Dundee career (only one season) has the this player looked comfortable and looked like he belonged there.  Shot stopping, coming for balls, ball at his feet and just keeping the ball in the park all come under the bracket C minus to D. Not buying this confidence thing either. Some are saying how could he be judged with what was very in front of him but you could easily turn that around and say how could a defence be judged with him behind them. It is up to him to command his box and command his defence but so far he just hasn't done it. He is going to have to prove himself but in the first games of the season and I am more than willing to be proved wrong.

Apologies for the DD type predictive text nonsense.

 

Edited by Attilio

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6 hours ago, Edin_Dee said:

I think the biggest difference we will see when comparing McCann/Macintyre with McPake is the man management of the players.

McCann wasn't able to deal with big characters in the dressing room. If he had managed to form a good relationship with Scott Bain and Scott Allan then we may well have had a good season in McCann's first year. I think he probably lost the respect of the players the way he regularly flew off the handle in the dressing room and criticised their standards in public. One of his first games against a Highland League side (forget which one) he slammed the players for only winning 2-0. Seemed a strange thing to do.

Macintyre took the view that he didn't want any of McCann's players to play. This included (as far as I could tell) making little to no effort to try and persuade Kamara to stay for a further 6 months. I firmly believe we would have stayed up if we had kept Kamara and had a manager with good man management skills. Even the likes of Kerr, McGowan and O'Dea became bit part players. Granted their form wasn't great but we really needed at least some players on the park you could rely on to give their all.

You only need to look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie to see that a massive turnaround of players is not necessary to get average players to produce results.

I like that McPake has tried to keep the few players who are still here from last season. There is clear logic in the type of signings he has made. That has not always been the case in the last couple of seasons.

The off field stuff McPake seems to be getting right so far. The big question mark is what is he like tactically? Can he drill the players to perform on the park? Can he tweak things mid game when it's not working? We'll not know that until a few games in.

Kamara “left” well before Jim arrived, we need players who see Dundee as a positive move, a place that motivates them- so far so good for me with McPakes signings. I can’t see May fitting into the type of player I describe above....I wish we’d signed Kevin Nisbett. 

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Why do fans boo? I don't think it's a conscious decision. When I went to game in the 90s I used to groan with frustration at every slack pass and grumble ffs at every bad miss. You are desperate for the team to do well but you're powerless so you vent.

In recent years though I just stay detached and take it all in rather than let the action dictate my emotions. It doesn't help the team and in fact it probably increases the chances of a bad result if you are contributing frustration and anger as part of the crowd.

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I think Hamilton's main problem is the fact we paid 100k for him ( that's the figure that's banded about, no idea if it's true) and he came with a big reputation. As Attillio has already pointed out he's struggled with the basics. How many times has he kicked the ball straight out the park? I'm hoping for his sake that it was because we were a mess of a club all last season and he can prove his worth this season. 

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2 hours ago, DFC1974 said:

We probably can, but is this something that can be done outside of the pressure of a ‘real’ match? The last game of the season was a nothing game and yet 2 (arguably 3) goals were needlessly given away. Do we go to Dunfermline and accept the same as part of the confidence rebuilding process?

As I said, I’m happy for another clean slate but there will be no ‘adjustment’ time from me. Hamilton needs to start the season fully focused.  Sorry if this sounds harsh! 

Exactly. 

If the pre season games and a couple of the cup games show that he has fully regained whatever 'confidence' he was supposed to have lost, then that's just fine. If not, then he should be rehabilitated in the reserves or elsewhere. 

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We need players who want to play for Dundee. We don't need to sign guys who see us as a stepping stone to further their career. It sets up the wrong attitude completely right from the first day of their employment. Get Hamilton  playing for us because he is happy to be here, has got our support behind him. It's the same for all the players, we support them they play to the best of their ability for McP. Get the moaners to take a positivity pill. It's not a Happy Clappy issue, it's a long overdue correction in the mindset of some Dee's.

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2 hours ago, Attilio said:

Certainly never been one to be booing any of our players, ever. I might sit there shaking my head or, as a last resort, screaming 'wtf are you back playing at' but that is it. With regard to JH, I would ask this. When, in his Dundee career (only one season) has the this player looked comfortable and looked like he belonged there.  Shot stopping, coming for balls, ball at his feet and just keeping the ball in the park all come under the bracket C minus to D. Not buying this confidence thing either. Some are saying how could he be judged with what was very in front of him but you could easily turn that around and say how could a defence be judged with him behind them. It is up to him to command his box and command his defence but so far he just hasn't done it. He is going to have to prove himself but in the first games of the season and I am more than willing to be proved wrong.

Apologies for the DD type predictive text nonsense.

 

The national bosses from U15 all the way up to senior level saw enough from Hamilton to select him. One of the top clubs in Scotland made him their number 1 and then our own club saw enough in him to spend a reported 6 figure sum to secure his services and then promptly installed him as our number 1. Now it's possible that all these professionals could be wrong or, imo much more likely, there's something else at play. If we rewind back a few years and the attempted implementation of football's latest fad, the playing it out from the back method of building attacking moves, we've seen numerous players suffering from a bout of the 'Jack Hamilton's'. Scott Bain, Darren O'Dea, Cammy, Josh Meekings, Hamilton himself and a few others too have struggled and been labelled as finished, trouble makers, liabilities and simply not good enough. We've chopped and changed trying to find a backline that was comfortable enough to persevere with the new approach. If in doubt, kick it out became a thing of the past as we attempted to turn typical British style defenders into Franz Beckenbauer's over pre-season. The unsettled defence had a knock on effect and the moans and groans from the stands became more and more evident. Opposition players knew that by pressing our defenders we'd eventually make mistakes and we ultimately lost daft goals. IMO it's little or no wonder that anyone without the strongest of temperaments struggled with the uncertainty in our own half. I'm just hoping that a settled defence and a more Scottish approach to defending will see those who've had a hard time get back to the levels that they are obviously capable of. I actually read somewhere today that Paul McGowan, a player who's recently divided opinion, has been a revelation this pre-season and that he's almost like a new signing. McGowan is a player who was written off as being finished by some not many moons ago. Maybe Hamilton, if given the chance, can come good too?.

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1 hour ago, Dondeh said:

Exactly. 

If the pre season games and a couple of the cup games show that he has fully regained whatever 'confidence' he was supposed to have lost, then that's just fine. If not, then he should be rehabilitated in the reserves or elsewhere. 

You seem happy to play down the possibility of the player lacking in confidence in favour of something a bit more negative. I'm not sure I can see the benefits in that to be honest. 

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2 hours ago, Cobra said:

Why do fans boo? I don't think it's a conscious decision. When I went to game in the 90s I used to groan with frustration at every slack pass and grumble ffs at every bad miss. You are desperate for the team to do well but you're powerless so you vent.

In recent years though I just stay detached and take it all in rather than let the action dictate my emotions. It doesn't help the team and in fact it probably increases the chances of a bad result if you are contributing frustration and anger as part of the crowd.

I think you'd need to be made of wood as a football fan not to "FFS" or tut, sigh etc at times, I can even get to an extent the ranters balling away despite me finding it comical. The booing thing is panto stuff though, I'd be interested in what other part of their live's people boo, a massive queue at Asda's, a good old boo will motivate the till operators to get their finger out. Out for a walk and someone not picking up their dog crap, a good "boooooo" should shame them into picking the t**d up. Its just so childish.

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14 minutes ago, chomp my root said:

I think you'd need to be made of wood as a football fan not to "FFS" or tut, sigh etc at times, I can even get to an extent the ranters balling away despite me finding it comical. The booing thing is panto stuff though, I'd be interested in what other part of their live's people boo, a massive queue at Asda's, a good old boo will motivate the till operators to get their finger out. Out for a walk and someone not picking up their dog crap, a good "boooooo" should shame them into picking the t**d up. Its just so childish.

I hate booing. Are under-performing players going to be motivated to fight more for the jersey and our club if they hear booing ringing in their ears? I seriously doubt it.

The very worst booing though is during a game. It's madness for a fan to boo during a game. It makes a little sense at the end of a game to express dissatisfaction with a performance but to boo players while they're on the park and still able to influence the result it's surely going to do more harm that good.

I was never booed myself. Never played at high enough a level but I can guarantee if I ever heard boos it would have made me seethe with anger, it would have made me resent the fans and my performance would have deteriorated.

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From 1964 to 2019,  I have never booed a Dundee player during the 90 mins of a match. (Having said that, I may have done with Gordon Chisholm).

 

Edited by Dondeh

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1 hour ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

The national bosses from U15 all the way up to senior level saw enough from Hamilton to select him. One of the top clubs in Scotland made him their number 1 and then our own club saw enough in him to spend a reported 6 figure sum to secure his services and then promptly installed him as our number 1. Now it's possible that all these professionals could be wrong or, imo much more likely, there's something else at play. If we rewind back a few years and the attempted implementation of football's latest fad, the playing it out from the back method of building attacking moves, we've seen numerous players suffering from a bout of the 'Jack Hamilton's'. Scott Bain, Darren O'Dea, Cammy, Josh Meekings, Hamilton himself and a few others too have struggled and been labelled as finished, trouble makers, liabilities and simply not good enough. We've chopped and changed trying to find a backline that was comfortable enough to persevere with the new approach. If in doubt, kick it out became a thing of the past as we attempted to turn typical British style defenders into Franz Beckenbauer's over pre-season. The unsettled defence had a knock on effect and the moans and groans from the stands became more and more evident. Opposition players knew that by pressing our defenders we'd eventually make mistakes and we ultimately lost daft goals. IMO it's little or no wonder that anyone without the strongest of temperaments struggled with the uncertainty in our own half. I'm just hoping that a settled defence and a more Scottish approach to defending will see those who've had a hard time get back to the levels that they are obviously capable of. I actually read somewhere today that Paul McGowan, a player who's recently divided opinion, has been a revelation this pre-season and that he's almost like a new signing. McGowan is a player who was written off as being finished by some not many moons ago. Maybe Hamilton, if given the chance, can come good too?.

To be honest I give very little credence to what has gone before, only what I can see with my own eyes. In the same way I paid little attention to the gossip that came out of Tynecastle when he joined us. I sincerely hope you are right in that he can get his act together this season but based on last season I have big doubts. Hamilton has had chances to impress but hasn't grabbed them obviously. That could be down to himself or by the sounds of it the alternative theory is that it could mostly be other people's fault. Again, I say that I really hope the guy proves me wrong.

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22 minutes ago, Cobra said:

I hate booing. Are under-performing players going to be motivated to fight more for the jersey and our club if they hear booing ringing in their ears? I seriously doubt it.

The very worst booing though is during a game. It's madness for a fan to boo during a game. It makes a little sense at the end of a game to express dissatisfaction with a performance but to boo players while they're on the park and still able to influence the result it's surely going to do more harm that good.

I was never booed myself. Never played at high enough a level but I can guarantee if I ever heard boos it would have made me seethe with anger, it would have made me resent the fans and my performance would have deteriorated.

The whole thing has been debated to death and nothing will change, some will always claim that "they've paid their money" so can shout whatever hateful crap they want. I don't get why they want to heap pressure on a player they claim to support unless of course its more about the venting than the football.... 

I can get the dissatisfaction at the end of a match if we've underperformed but to boo the team off after a lacklustre first half to then clap the team back on for the second half suggest to this smooth pimp daddy that its all about the self indulgence of having a big old 'BOOOOOOO'. Its this mentality that makes me prefer away games, its usually a bit more upbeat.

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17 minutes ago, Attilio said:

To be honest I give very little credence to what has gone before, only what I can see with my own eyes. In the same way I paid little attention to the gossip that came out of Tynecastle when he joined us. I sincerely hope you are right in that he can get his act together this season but based on last season I have big doubts. Hamilton has had chances to impress but hasn't grabbed them obviously. That could be down to himself or by the sounds of it the alternative theory is that it could mostly be other people's fault. Again, I say that I really hope the guy proves me wrong.

You mean chances to impress are like crossed balls into a six yard box? 

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