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4-4-2 / Accommodating Players

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So just back from the Elgin match and what I seen today once again convinced me of two things that are both connected . 

Firstly I don't think we are equipped to play 4-4-2 because when we do or defensive frailties are exposed .

For me our best set up is 4-5-1 , yes it means only one striker but we control matches better , we still create chances and look defensively stronger , 

We started off today with the one striker and I thought 1st half we completely controlled the match . scored a good goal and didn't look in any real danger of conceding and certainly didn't look like we would do anything other than win that game . 

Second half  he decided to go to a 4-4-2 when in my opinion there was simply no need to do that . We were well in control of the match , we had the goal and without being brilliant were doing more than enough  in  the match to suggest it would be a comfortable victory but  from then on we looked totally disjointed and very exposed defensively . 

I just think AGAIN he is trying to keep our strikers happy by accommodating them all instead of taking the hard decision to say we are playing one up front and whoever starts needs to make sure his performances are good or he will be replaced . 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, DBDU said:

So just back from the Elgin match and what I seen today once again convinced me of two things that are both connected . 

Firstly I don't think we are equipped to play 4-4-2 because when we do or defensive frailties are exposed .

For me our best set up is 4-5-1 , yes it means only one striker but we control matches better , we still create chances and look defensively stronger , 

We started off today with the one striker and I thought 1st half we completely controlled the match . scored a good goal and didn't look in any real danger of conceding and certainly didn't look like we would do anything other than win that game . 

Second half  he decided to go to a 4-4-2 when in my opinion there was simply no need to do that . We were well in control of the match , we had the goal and without being brilliant were doing more than enough  in  the match to suggest it would be a comfortable victory but  from then on we looked totally disjointed and very exposed defensively . 

I just think AGAIN he is trying to keep our strikers happy by accommodating them all instead of taking the hard decision to say we are playing one up front and whoever starts needs to make sure his performances are good or he will be replaced . 

 

 

I agree with what your saying mate but find it really concerning that we can't play 442 and dominate against a lower league team.

Any team should be able to play 442, if not it's  a clear sign of an unbalanced squad. 

I think our big issue is lack of creativity and think resigning Hemmings has given us a headache as Johnson and Nelson would do fine. It looks like we've spent the bulkkf the  budget and i doubt there's money left for a number 10 type.  We'd be in a far better position if we spent the money on a creative player rather than Hemmings. 

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17 minutes ago, nemsadzDEE said:

I agree with what your saying mate but find it really concerning that we can't play 442 and dominate against a lower league team.

Any team should be able to play 442, if not it's  a clear sign of an unbalanced squad. 

I think our big issue is lack of creativity and think resigning Hemmings has given us a headache as Johnson and Nelson would do fine. It looks like we've spent the bulkkf the  budget and i doubt there's money left for a number 10 type.  We'd be in a far better position if we spent the money on a creative player rather than Hemmings. 

Totally agree , we should be able to play 4-4-2 but we cant . I thought when we went 4-4-2 Meekings in particular really struggled and if I'm being honest I thought their big striker bossed him a bit ! 

I also agree with what you are saying about resigning Kane .

I really like kano but seeing as we already had 2 very good strikers at the club ,  resigning him was always going to create a headache for McPake as in who does he drop and I will be honest I would rather the cash would have went on a real creative No10 In the mould of Harkins , Stewart , Scott Allan , Scott Wright . 

A lot of thinking now needed by the gaffer  at such an early stage in his  managerial career .

He always showed steel as a player he is going to need that here because there is a lot of work required here to turn this around on the last couple showings . 

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54 minutes ago, nemsadzDEE said:

I agree with what your saying mate but find it really concerning that we can't play 442 and dominate against a lower league team.

Any team should be able to play 442, if not it's  a clear sign of an unbalanced squad. 

I think our big issue is lack of creativity and think resigning Hemmings has given us a headache as Johnson and Nelson would do fine. It looks like we've spent the bulkkf the  budget and i doubt there's money left for a number 10 type.  We'd be in a far better position if we spent the money on a creative player rather than Hemmings. 

Yes absolutely ridiculous we can't win 4 or 5 nothing against bloody Elgin ex Highland League even with 4 4 2. F#cking joke to be honest. McPake better sort things out. Fed up of managers being useless with tactics and team selection.

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46 minutes ago, DBDU said:

Totally agree , we should be able to play 4-4-2 but we cant . I thought when we went 4-4-2 Meekings in particular really struggled and if I'm being honest I thought their big striker bossed him a bit ! 

I also agree with what you are saying about resigning Kane .

I really like kano but seeing as we already had 2 very good strikers at the club ,  resigning him was always going to create a headache for McPake as in who does he drop and I will be honest I would rather the cash would have went on a real creative No10 In the mould of Harkins , Stewart , Scott Allan , Scott Wright . 

A lot of thinking now needed by the gaffer  at such an early stage in his  managerial career .

He always showed steel as a player he is going to need that here because there is a lot of work required here to turn this around on the last couple showings . 

I agree re a creative player. Why not two? That's something that has been overlooked for many years.

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1 hour ago, DBDU said:

For me our best set up is 4-5-1 , yes it means only one striker but we control matches better , we still create chances and look defensively stronger , 

Was given a bit of a hard time recently for suggesting this. However, it is by some distance, the only formation we've look comfortable with .

That to me is MUCH more important that which players are getting a game. 

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9 minutes ago, barkblue said:

Was given a bit of a hard time recently for suggesting this. However, it is by some distance, the only formation we've look comfortable with .

That to me is MUCH more important that which players are getting a game. 

Totally agree but can see why McPake feels he has to pick certain players. In the first half today we should've been out of sight with the amount of ball we had. Maybe 4-5-1 protects us defensively but only really gives us more of the ball in the middle of the park. We rarely create anything of note with the extra man and extra possession. It does give us something to build on though but will maybe initially result in low scoring wins and, or, draws. I don't see us taking sides apart and winning handsomely, although any point is better than losing in the manner we've done recently.

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1 minute ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Totally agree but can see why McPake feels he has to pick certain players. In the first half today we should've been out of sight with the amount of ball we had. Maybe 4-5-1 protects us defensively but only really gives us more of the ball in the middle of the park. We rarely create anything of note with extra man and extra possession. It does give us something to build on though but will maybe initially result in low scoring wins and, or, draws. I don't see us taking sides apart and winning handsomely, anything point is better than losing in the manner we've done recently though.

I think we all want exciting, expansive football with lots of goals and loads of incident. McPake tried that in the derby. End result was a game with tons of chances and eight goals. But I think we'll end up on the wrong end of most of these games with the midfield we have.

We play much better when we control the ball and tempo (Aberdeen game) and we also, in my opinion, created lots more chances too, rather than the toothless possession we saw against Ayr and ICT.

I do get it. Hemmings is THE man and there's pressure on McPake not to be so negative at home and especially against the likes of Elgin. In the end, we'd all take a season or two of 'boring, boring Arsenal' if we won most games 1-0. Currently we're playing 442, while still creating little and struggling to protect the back-line.

Something's going to have to give sooner or later. If McPake can't get/find/stick with a formation and line-up that does better than the last few weeks, then he'll be heading off soon. The crazy thing is I think more than the last 2 managers, he has put a decent set of players together, but he's trying to unlock something from them that's just not there. That will only end one way unfortunately. 

I'm a McPake believer. Give him time and he'll get it right. Many more results like the last two and he won't get that time though. 

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10 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Totally agree but can see why McPake feels he has to pick certain players. In the first half today we should've been out of sight with the amount of ball we had. Maybe 4-5-1 protects us defensively but only really gives us more of the ball in the middle of the park. We rarely create anything of note with the extra man and extra possession. It does give us something to build on though but will maybe initially result in low scoring wins and, or, draws. I don't see us taking sides apart and winning handsomely, although any point is better than losing in the manner we've done recently.

We need to be many many times better. New central defender and a couple of creative options in midfield required. Plus a new keeper. 

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19 minutes ago, eyeothedug said:

Plus a new keeper. 

Slander apparently .

 

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I think we changed it at HT because Ness took that heavy challenge and is either crocked again or taken off as a precaution.

As per usual we beat ourselves with a crazy 3 minute spell where anything that could go wrong did.

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Missed the game today so cant comment on the game or performance, however if switching to a 4-4-2 has cost us the game (against Elgin!!) we are in bigger trouble than I initially thought. 

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23 minutes ago, Dens Bound Rhino said:

Missed the game today so cant comment on the game or performance, however if switching to a 4-4-2 has cost us the game (against Elgin!!) we are in bigger trouble than I initially thought. 

McPake is going to go the way of his predecessors unless he wakes up and if he doesn’t, how long will the owners put up with the  shitfest that is DFC?

For gods sake James get a simple system that the players have faith in and stick with it.

Its Scottish championship football, it’s all about application, determination and will to win, that’s it.

Get a grip or the futures bleak for you, the team and us the poor feckin fans.

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Giving McPake the job did IMO lead to the sticklebrick demolition. He's got a lot to learn BUT he is a worthy leader of our team and I think we maybe have to persist with him. 

He's got some great experience around him, he's already shown a willingness to change things around and he's got a hugely supportive board.

I don't want to write off this season but if this turns out to be a brutal learning experience for JMcP and we go again next season that's ok.

McCann had an arrogance and stubbornness about him. McIntyre seemed to have a disconnect from the club that he never fixed, Hartley ran out of ideas and seemed to be given too much free rein to buy any old sh**e he saw in the computer. 

McPake was probably a short-term bad move for Dundee in terms of challenging United but he's here now and will surely only grow into the job.

If the fans don't get fed-up and demand a Jimmy Calderwood-type appointment I'm prepared to deal with whatever excrement this season has to throw at me.

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58 minutes ago, Spiritof62 said:

Its Scottish championship football, it’s all about application, determination and will to win, that’s it.

This ^^^^^ This ^^^^^^ and This again ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We need  a presence upfront. A ball winner in midfield and quick, uncompromising CBs.

In the Championship, this rest is window dressing.

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I have kept my powder dry about the squad until we had a decent amount of games, we have had 11 now which is an ok number to judge so here it is.

This squad has me baffled to be quite honest. On paper we have a pretty decent squad, one that should be comfy in the bottom 6 with a outside chance of top 6 IMO. However the reality is in stark contrast. The funny thing is I am sure at lease 90% of us were more than happy with our business in the summer, on paper it was quality over quantity and it was looking pretty good but needing a bit more depth.

As the season has bore on the performances have been up and down at best and that is just within individual 90 minutes. Is it the players? Dens seems to have a curse that good players anywhere else walk through the doors and turn into dug meat. Is it the management? Early signs were good but the past few games any system we had seems to have gone right out the windee.

On the player front, only couple are getting pass marks from me. McGhee, Robertson, Nelson. Johnson and Hemmings are barely getting a pass but in fairness the service they have got so far has been pish poor. For everyone else - Hamilton is an ok shot stopper (which all keepers should be) but at all other aspect of being a keeper are below par. Kerr simply isn't good enough (despite his screamer yesterday lol) for all his effort he is not a good player, he can tackle and that's about it. Forster is slow and a bombscare. I am unconvinced by Marshall but he's not been the worst. Meekings is a broken man, a shadow of the player he was before his injury issues. Feel a bit sorry for Byrne tbh he is a sitting midfielder who should be sweeping up and doing the unnoticed but invaluable work, however he is being asked to charge about midfield which just isn't his game at all. Ness clearly has quality but isn't showing it for more than a flash, he should be strolling this league but has barely got out of first gear. Todd is not a winger, he is a No. 10 or a centre mid (which QoS fans said was his best positions) and so far he has not started in either position, played there in the second half v the Pars and he looked dangerous but overall he has been poor. McDaid is just your typical hot and cold winger but he has offered less than expected if I am honest. Gowser has simply been pish since the league cup, did fine v the scum when they took the foot of the gas but overall in the league hes been poor. Can't say much for McPake and Mackie as they are just in the door.

For the gaffer, the early signs were very promising IMO. Seemed to have a plan and clear instructions. However, as time has went on some of the selections and in game changes have been worrying. Pretty much every game he has had to scrap is starting set up and change constantly in game and has barely played the same team and set up in consecutive games. Our best team performance was in the cup v the sheep and should have been the baseline to continue in the season but was thrown out the very next game. The derby summed it up for me really. Most of my pals and family were over the moon he was setting up to attack Utd but I had been saying all week that it would be madness to go out an attack them and we should be defensive, overrun the midfield, stifle the game and hit them on the break. I was told "Nah they are sh**e, we will pump them" despite McDaid and Todd being out of form, despite Hemmings and Johnson being woeful together to that point, depsite ICT ripping us open quite a few times the week before. Seems Jazza let the fan side of his brain get the better of him. And yesterday should have been win no matter how we do it, just win. But after controlling the game, he surrendered the midfield and the rest is history. It might have been the Teacake Wafer Cup but it was simply not good enough.

I was never expecting to win the league. We have came off two of our worst ever seasons and are going through a total rebuild, it would have been a massive ask to win the league but we should be comfy in the play-offs at the very least.

We are desperate for another CB but I am not holding my breath so looks like we are stuck with the defence and keeper we have so I feel we are going to have to play 5 in midfield to protect them more. 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 to a 4-3-3 when on top and attacking.

Hamilton

Kerr McGhee Forster Marshall

McPake Bryne Todd Roberston McDaid

Nelson (on current form)

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10 hours ago, Cobra said:

Giving McPake the job did IMO lead to the sticklebrick demolition. He's got a lot to learn BUT he is a worthy leader of our team and I think we maybe have to persist with him. 

He's got some great experience around him, he's already shown a willingness to change things around and he's got a hugely supportive board.

I don't want to write off this season but if this turns out to be a brutal learning experience for JMcP and we go again next season that's ok.

McCann had an arrogance and stubbornness about him. McIntyre seemed to have a disconnect from the club that he never fixed, Hartley ran out of ideas and seemed to be given too much free rein to buy any old sh**e he saw in the computer. 

McPake was probably a short-term bad move for Dundee in terms of challenging United but he's here now and will surely only grow into the job.

If the fans don't get fed-up and demand a Jimmy Calderwood-type appointment I'm prepared to deal with whatever excrement this season has to throw at me.

It is all about expectations ... I am sure no one thought this season was going to be a formality (doon one season & up the next)

I accept however, eh didnae expect a 6-2 thumping fae United. And certainly not a defeat at hame tae...The Mighty Elgin of the North.

But what's happened has happened. And although we all have the right to feel, hurt & embarrassed, it's no gonna change the results.

I'm still surprisingly calm about the whole thing today, accepting promotion/play-offs are on the back-burner for this season anyway.

Do I still rate James Mc Pake? Yes at this time, I am still right behind him. He may well go on to make an erse o' whole season ahead.

But my feeling at this time is, because of the character of the man, it means given some breathing space, he will get us back on track.

(All about opinions mind)

 

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I notice DBDU you have added a like to my post ... Thank You.

No just for myself ... But for your added support for J.McPake.

None of us know what is ahead, But I bet the man is suffering.

IMO we've got to show bit of solidarity here. Support DFC/Mgr.

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51 minutes ago, Gedee said:

I notice DBDU you have added a like to my post ... Thank You.

No just for myself ... But for your added support for J.McPake.

None of us know what is ahead, But I bet the man is suffering.

IMO we've got to show bit of solidarity here. Support DFC/Mgr.

Without a doubt .

Obviously I'm really disappointed with the last couple matches but overall I think the signs have been positives given its a new side he has assembled .

He needs to find his feet , gel a side and find his best formation and none of that was going to happen overnight and in that respect unfortunately the DABS are way ahead of us seeing as that side were assembled last season with the addition of Shankland that has obviously been a good signing for them as well .

 

Still a very long way to go here so not being too disheartened and still hopeful McPake can prove his worth .   

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13 hours ago, Dens Bound Rhino said:

Missed the game today so cant comment on the game or performance, however if switching to a 4-4-2 has cost us the game (against Elgin!!) we are in bigger trouble than I initially thought. 

Absolutely 

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