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Nelson/Johnson/Hemmings Are Recognised Goal Scorers

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Difficult Times calls for Difficult Decisions .... Most folk on here will know I can't get to live games now for a range of reasons. Add to that, although I've been going to watch live fitba games, of all kinds, for quite a long time, and ken the difference beteween a good player & a bad player ... And a good game & a bad game, I have never really got into  New Systems/Plans/Tactics. (As in life, I believe sometimes in an effort to improve things, we can end up over-complicate things. And I believe this might be the case (at times) in the World of Football)

Neil McCann was a fine fella, intelligent & articulate, & also proven & an experienced quality player. As a manager he was totally focused on what was required, to make a successful team & him a successful manager ... And then it all went wrong. At least in part (imo) because he was asking players to do (& understand) something which they were in the main. incapable of doing. Every player should be ambitious & open to learning & further development, but I am also a believer, in allowing a player to do what he is comfortable & best at .. using his natural skills & those skills which he has learned & further developed

Which bring us to the Three Names on the Topic Headline.

It's been proven in the past,  putting on front-line of top scoring forwards, goals will NOT automaticall follow (Even i know that)

NORMALLY I WOULD AGREE, WE NEED CREATIVE GOAL MAKERS, AS WELL AS GOAL SCORERS TO MAKE THIS WORK AT ALL.

But as a walk into the unknown, what might happen, if JPR put on 3 players mentioned above upfront, with simple instructions

to all three players "I want each of you to focus on one thing only: Putting that ball in the net"  I understand there is an obvious

difficulty, of then finding a balanced team that could also be strong in defence, whilst at same time supply the feed for front 3.

But for the sake of dicussion & to give those posters who have a real insight into the game (no me) if this was put to you, what

could you, would you, come up with? If you feel like responding. I would prefer to hear views of how this might work, rather than

dismissing it , as anither load of rambling nonsense fae that "Daft Auld Man" Yes, it could prove a real disaster...But on the other

hand, were I the opposition team facing 3 front men of that quality, who've proved they can score goals, I would feel intimidated.

The biggest, obvious problem as I see it, is finding a player(s) who can supply the front  men with the right kind of ammunition.

If Stewart was available, he could be the "missing link"

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Have just noticed, no more than a few moments ago, a Topic with "Our Forwards" ... (Apologies, if this is similar)

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On paper our front three look like the best forward line in the championship and perhaps even better than teams at the bottom of the premiership....

The biggest problem which everyone already knows about is the lack of chances we are creating. There is just no drive or support from the midfield.

When you look at our stats, when was the last time we had something like 18/20 attempts on goal? It's not even as though our forwards as missing great opportunities or open goals.

There is just nothing being created. 

No wonder the likes of Hemmings is looking fed up, I'd be too if I came back expecting to be scoring for fun with great service.

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14 minutes ago, J_Kitamirike said:

On paper our front three look like the best forward line in the championship and perhaps even better than teams at the bottom of the premiership....

The biggest problem which everyone already knows about is the lack of chances we are creating. There is just no drive or support from the midfield.

When you look at our stats, when was the last time we had something like 18/20 attempts on goal? It's not even as though our forwards as missing great opportunities or open goals.

There is just nothing being created. 

No wonder the likes of Hemmings is looking fed up, I'd be too if I came back expecting to be scoring for fun with great service.

Thanks for your response ... And it is difficult to disagree with your comments/assessment J-K.

However, although the practicalities of setting up a team with the 3 scoring forwards up-front, would give any manager a Huge Headache (& may well be an impossibility) maybe whilst emphasising to them that their duty today is to rack-up the goals today, he should also take aside, the midfield ... And doubly emphasise their respnsibility & their crucial role in supplying theit Target men ... As you so clearly state above freend.

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Elgin was an ideal opportunity to try the above,with nelson and johnson playing like an old no8,no10 roles,byrne sitting,ness ,todd supporting,could it have been worse?

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6 hours ago, J_Kitamirike said:

On paper our front three look like the best forward line in the championship and perhaps even better than teams at the bottom of the premiership....

The biggest problem which everyone already knows about is the lack of chances we are creating. There is just no drive or support from the midfield.

When you look at our stats, when was the last time we had something like 18/20 attempts on goal? It's not even as though our forwards as missing great opportunities or open goals.

There is just nothing being created. 

No wonder the likes of Hemmings is looking fed up, I'd be too if I came back expecting to be scoring for fun with great service.

Could not agree more.

We seem to have our 2/3 attempts on target per game and a few more on goal . (Not any better than last season really). 

And we sign a back up left back on deadline day?.

Edited by Dondeh

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6 hours ago, J_Kitamirike said:

On paper our front three look like the best forward line in the championship and perhaps even better than teams at the bottom of the premiership....

The biggest problem which everyone already knows about is the lack of chances we are creating. There is just no drive or support from the midfield.

When you look at our stats, when was the last time we had something like 18/20 attempts on goal? It's not even as though our forwards as missing great opportunities or open goals.

There is just nothing being created. 

No wonder the likes of Hemmings is looking fed up, I'd be too if I came back expecting to be scoring for fun with great service.

And here lies the problem that has been our painfully obvious  downfall since Stewart and Harkins left Dens.

We must have the longest list of midfielders of any club over the last 3 or 4 seasons and yet somehow we failed to find anyone capable of playing a defence splitting pass. Sideways, backwards or running around in circles, we’ve cornered the market, but someone who can thread a forward pass that opens up a defence...the search continues. 

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On 11/09/2019 at 10:44, J_Kitamirike said:

 

On paper our front three look like the best forward line in the championship and perhaps even better than teams at the bottom of the premiership....

 

Not sure this is entirely true, Nelson has not been a good signing to date, he was awful last season bar a couple of games and has not really done anything this season to say that is going to change. Johnstone has been moved on from a bottom 6 premiership club and has not stood out from the games I’ve watched this season. Hemmings 3 years ago was excellent for Dundee, full of confidence and likely to hit double figures in the top flight, this does not mean we will get the same player back.

 

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6 hours ago, BigG said:

Not sure this is entirely true, Nelson has not been a good signing to date, he was awful last season bar a couple of games and has not really done anything this season to say that is going to change. Johnstone has been moved on from a bottom 6 premiership club and has not stood out from the games I’ve watched this season. Hemmings 3 years ago was excellent for Dundee, full of confidence and likely to hit double figures in the top flight, this does not mean we will get the same player back.

 

I think Johnson has been really quite good in the games he's played. Lead the line incredibly well against Aberdeen, scored a perfectly good goal against United, won and scored a penalty against Dunfermline. He has, however, looked a little lost when paired up with Hemmings - and in general the service he's received has bee garbage.

Nelson scored a winner against Ayr and looked decent in the short run out he got that day and looked very lively against United - and took his goal well, which considering his lack of game time isn't a bad return.

Arguably, Hemmings is the one who has looked least effective in the games I've seen.

Personally I think the front line is the only department of the team that doesn't need strengthening.  

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If Liverpool can accommodate 3 forwards, why can't we. Much stronger league obviously but it's still 11 v 11. We'd probably get thrashed knowing us.

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1 hour ago, Blue4evr said:

If Liverpool can accommodate 3 forwards, why can't we. Much stronger league obviously but it's still 11 v 11. We'd probably get thrashed knowing us.

Because the other 8 Liverpool players are word class at what they do. We have the likes of Meekings humping it long to nobody. We could have 6 forwards up there but if we don't get the ball to them in the right areas we still won't score goals and we'll still lose more than we'll score.

Lots of teams say they play 4-3-3 these days but in reality most only really play with one proper striker (Liverpool are undoubtedly an exception). Some play with none up front. 

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13 minutes ago, barkblue said:

Because the other 8 Liverpool players are word class at what they do. We have the likes of Meekings humping it long to nobody. We could have 6 forwards up there but if we don't get the ball to them in the right areas we still won't score goals and we'll still lose more than we'll score.

Lots of teams say they play 4-3-3 these days but in reality most only really play with one proper striker (Liverpool are undoubtedly an exception). Some play with none up front. 

Liverpool's other players need to be world class because they're playing against class players at Man C, Chelsea etc. We're up against Ayr, Arbroath, Alloa etc. In theory if they can do it in their league we should be able to do it in ours. Couldn't imagine Klop having Salah and Mane on the bench. 

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22 minutes ago, Blue4evr said:

Liverpool's other players need to be world class because they're playing against class players at Man C, Chelsea etc. We're up against Ayr, Arbroath, Alloa etc. In theory if they can do it in their league we should be able to do it in ours. Couldn't imagine Klop having Salah and Mane on the bench. 

That doesn't stack up for a variety of reasons. Liverpool are markedly better than most teams in their league. Yes, you mention Chelsea and Man C. But you'd expect them to beat West Ham, Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, Newcastle most weeks because their players are MUCH better than those at the smaller clubs. Unfortunately our players have so far proved not to be markedly better than those of any team we've played against in this league. Not Dunfermline, Ayr, ICT or United. Hopefully that will change on Saturday.

Liverpool's midfield (remembering they are champions of Europe) dominate most games and allow their front-line the freedom to play in the right areas, they break at pace and help their front-line to overload the opposition's defence and they still manage to protect their own defenders while giving their FBs the freedom to get forward at provide ammunition for their strikers. 

Klopp has created a team capable of winning games of we'll score more goals than you will.

Which of those attributes does this Dundee side have? When we tried to go attacking against United we basically gave up the midfield and allowed them to overload on every counter. That was with 2 up front, never mind 3. 

Liverpool are a stick on to finish in the top 2 in their league this season, Dundee, on current evidence unfortunately are not. 

Theory is one thing, reality is something else entirely. 

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The front three are not only good goal scorers they are also our best players technically.  I wonder if there is some formation that could work with perhaps Johnson playing deeper or wider.  If we start 433 and it's a disaster then change it but if all 3 are fit maybe would should put them on the pitch together.  I doubt we will though.  Starting to  look forward to tomorrow after a few days of gloom.

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8 hours ago, barkblue said:

That doesn't stack up for a variety of reasons. Liverpool are markedly better than most teams in their league. Yes, you mention Chelsea and Man C. But you'd expect them to beat West Ham, Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, Newcastle most weeks because their players are MUCH better than those at the smaller clubs. Unfortunately our players have so far proved not to be markedly better than those of any team we've played against in this league. Not Dunfermline, Ayr, ICT or United. Hopefully that will change on Saturday.

Liverpool's midfield (remembering they are champions of Europe) dominate most games and allow their front-line the freedom to play in the right areas, they break at pace and help their front-line to overload the opposition's defence and they still manage to protect their own defenders while giving their FBs the freedom to get forward at provide ammunition for their strikers. 

Klopp has created a team capable of winning games of we'll score more goals than you will.

Which of those attributes does this Dundee side have? When we tried to go attacking against United we basically gave up the midfield and allowed them to overload on every counter. That was with 2 up front, never mind 3. 

Liverpool are a stick on to finish in the top 2 in their league this season, Dundee, on current evidence unfortunately are not. 

Theory is one thing, reality is something else entirely. 

I'll give my opinion now if that's ok. We had 2 forwards on against Dabs, correct. What you forget is we also had 2 wingers, who did next to nothing. That meant that, stupidly, we only had 2 midfielders, neither of whom are the most mobile. That's why we were overrun not because we had 2 up front. With a back 4 and Ness, Byrne and Finn in midfield we would have been much more solid. The 3 forwards are also 3 of our best players, given the chance,  why play ineffective wingers when we have clever fast forwards. We should be playing down the channels as Dunfermline did with Dow, so effectively, not lumping up to Hemmings with 2 CH's on him. 

Yes, I do remember Liverpool are European Champions. They are masters at winning the ball and playing it quickly forward and down the flanks, not knocking it sideways to a static winger. All imo.

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1 hour ago, surreydee said:

The front three are not only good goal scorers they are also our best players technically.  I wonder if there is some formation that could work with perhaps Johnson playing deeper or wider.  If we start 433 and it's a disaster then change it but if all 3 are fit maybe would should put them on the pitch together.  I doubt we will though.  Starting to  look forward to tomorrow after a few days of gloom.

I think surrey' your post is basically is posing again, the question of what my topic is all about ... & that's not a criticism

(Happy to admit doing this could be total disaster...But on the other hand we've not covered ourselves in glory to ths point)

Is there not a way, to put the DFC's three main scored on the park right from the off? This is a genuine question for those

who know a lot more about modern systems & tactics than me (That's possibly everyone here) So tomorrow why not try it?

DFC Supporting Fans would be right behind each of them from the whistle ... And they just might put fear into opposition.

 

 

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Playing the way Liverpool do puts massive pressure on the full backs. They are left fairly exposed but also expected to contribute in the attacking third of the field. Our players do not have the ability or the football intelligence to play this high risk high reward style of play. Our midfield and defence struggle when there has been 9 of them. 

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2 minutes ago, Dundeefc1783 said:

Playing the way Liverpool do puts massive pressure on the full backs. They are left fairly exposed but also expected to contribute in the attacking third of the field. Our players do not have the ability or the football intelligence to play this high risk high reward style of play. Our midfield and defence struggle when there has been 9 of them. 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point above friend.But is there not some room for manoeuvre here?

We're tallking about Divisions/Clubs/Players, of totally different clas here. Dundee vs Alloa? Why not try this?

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During Duffy's 2nd spell at the club as Manager we played 4-3-3 the entire season.

It worked! 

Ness, Byrne and Robertson as our 3 in the middle might just work again. I would give ti a try

Actually the more I think about it, those 3 are quite similar and may not offer any creativity so scrap that idea.

Edited by J_Kitamirike

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3 hours ago, J_Kitamirike said:

Actually the more I think about it, those 3 are quite similar and may not offer any creativity so scrap that idea.

... Jings J-K, and here wis me gettn'' awe excited tae.

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