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I think we have to get rid of this "big team" mentality, because er have not been a so-called big team since the mid-70's. We have been a yo-yo team with the only decent squad assembled in that period being the Duffy squad that consisted of Weighorst, MacCann, etc. The Bonetti era was simply a use of money that we did not have. Throughout this time er have grown used to bog-average players, because we cannot afford anything else.

We have to earn the right if we are going to become a Premier League team. There has to be vision and ambition shown by owners, management, and players. We have to start talking and behaving like a big club. You do not have to spend above your means to do that. The whole culture around the club has to be changed and that takes time.

I believe in McPake, Nicholl, Strachan, and now is the time I believe to do it. We have got decent signings in and although things have not been good the last two games I still believe the shoots of recovery are there but the new stadium has to be built. Old Dens is a dump and not s "big-team" stadium.

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30 minutes ago, Iain T Campbell said:

I think we have to get rid of this "big team" mentality, because er have not been a so-called big team since the mid-70's. We have been a yo-yo team with the only decent squad assembled in that period being the Duffy squad that consisted of Weighorst, MacCann, etc. The Bonetti era was simply a use of money that we did not have. Throughout this time er have grown used to bog-average players, because we cannot afford anything else.

We have to earn the right if we are going to become a Premier League team. There has to be vision and ambition shown by owners, management, and players. We have to start talking and behaving like a big club. You do not have to spend above your means to do that. The whole culture around the club has to be changed and that takes time.

I believe in McPake, Nicholl, Strachan, and now is the time I believe to do it. We have got decent signings in and although things have not been good the last two games I still believe the shoots of recovery are there but the new stadium has to be built. Old Dens is a dump and not s "big-team" stadium.

Agree with most of this but Archie's mid eighties team were better by a long way than Duffy's mid nineties one.

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Agreed. We still see folk trying to push the "we're one of the biggest clubs in Scotland" narrative. 

We might have been, at one point. Since those days we're probably up there with most relegations, getting there with the trophy drought and certainly peak administration tables. 

We get 5,000 through the gates? Who gives a sh*t. 

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6 hours ago, OCDee said:

Agree with most of this but Archie's mid eighties team were better by a long way than Duffy's mid nineties one.

Why I put forward Duffy's nineties squad is they reached a final which Knox's squad failed to do, plus it was a final that we should have won if it was not for the fact that we showed Aberdeen too much respect. It is hard to choose between the two, but there is no doubt that Knox put together a very good squad.

My argument here is that finally we seem to be getting a backroom team together that should eventually lead us back to dine at the top table instead of being the yo-yo team that we are. I am not saying it will happen but the signs are there that we are planning ahead and it will take time. Strachan's plans for the youth will not bear fruit overnight.

MacPake loves the club and has put people in place that will help him as a rookie manager. The team assembled will take time to gel and I never expected us to get up this season although it is not impossible. What hinders Dundee and even Aberdeen, when it comes to that, is when we discover gems the top teams are in to pinch them. This is why it is imperative to have the right structure in place and I think the owners are beginning to realise this. It would be great if we could have league reconstruction as well. It is absolutely boring watching teams playing each other 3 or 4 times a season.

League reconstruction came as a result of Celtic winning the league nine seasons in a row under Stein. Rangers and now Celtic have done it both since then and yet there is no talk of further reconstruction. Falkirk who is one of our most well supported teams finds themselves in the third tier. That erodes the support base as we have found out to our cost.

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2 hours ago, Iain T Campbell said:

Why I put forward Duffy's nineties squad is they reached a final which Knox's squad failed to do, plus it was a final that we should have won if it was not for the fact that we showed Aberdeen too much respect. It is hard to choose between the two, but there is no doubt that Knox put together a very good squad.

My argument here is that finally we seem to be getting a backroom team together that should eventually lead us back to dine at the top table instead of being the yo-yo team that we are. I am not saying it will happen but the signs are there that we are planning ahead and it will take time. Strachan's plans for the youth will not bear fruit overnight.

MacPake loves the club and has put people in place that will help him as a rookie manager. The team assembled will take time to gel and I never expected us to get up this season although it is not impossible. What hinders Dundee and even Aberdeen, when it comes to that, is when we discover gems the top teams are in to pinch them. This is why it is imperative to have the right structure in place and I think the owners are beginning to realise this. It would be great if we could have league reconstruction as well. It is absolutely boring watching teams playing each other 3 or 4 times a season.

League reconstruction came as a result of Celtic winning the league nine seasons in a row under Stein. Rangers and now Celtic have done it both since then and yet there is no talk of further reconstruction. Falkirk who is one of our most well supported teams finds themselves in the third tier. That erodes the support base as we have found out to our cost.

Knox's team finished mid-table in the Premier League. Duffy's squad that you've mentioned failed to win promotion from the 1st division.

There's no doubt that we had some seriously good players in that Duffy squad but to me there's no comparison between a team that finished 6th in the top flight and one that finished 3rd in the division below.

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Sorry to bust your bubble but we are, based on attendances and trophies won, one of the biggest clubs in Scotland, I'd say maybe 7th or 8th. We're not a Super club like the two Glasgow clubs, we're not as big as the Dons, Jam Tarts or Hibees but we're up next with the Utd. Just because we haven't competed with smaller clubs out with the top six for many a year doesn't mean they are bigger clubs, some of them don't even have stadiums that can hold 5000. How many other clubs can get over 10,000 (the derby) for a game when not playing the top 5. 

Sure, we have to live up to the tag and agree we haven't since admin1 and admin2 severally restricted our ability to build a team.

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Knoxie was a quality centre half ,and a commanding keeper away from a trophy,the side was full of talented players who could destroy teams going forward,but leaked too many cheap goals.Pity he didn't hang about couple seasons.

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On 11/09/2019 at 09:50, Iain T Campbell said:

I think we have to get rid of this "big team" mentality, because er have not been a so-called big team since the mid-70's. We have been a yo-yo team with the only decent squad assembled in that period being the Duffy squad that consisted of Weighorst, MacCann, etc. The Bonetti era was simply a use of money that we did not have. Throughout this time er have grown used to bog-average players, because we cannot afford anything else.

We have to earn the right if we are going to become a Premier League team. There has to be vision and ambition shown by owners, management, and players. We have to start talking and behaving like a big club. You do not have to spend above your means to do that. The whole culture around the club has to be changed and that takes time.

I believe in McPake, Nicholl, Strachan, and now is the time I believe to do it. We have got decent signings in and although things have not been good the last two games I still believe the shoots of recovery are there but the new stadium has to be built. Old Dens is a dump and not s "big-team" stadium.

I am going to give my honest opinion on the matters covered about our problems over the last 40 years and it is down to the following:

  1. Board/Directors: Who have either constantly run this ground into the ground through greed, negligence, selfishness or self promotion. You just have to look at names likes Gellalty, Bett, Dixon, Cook, Marrs, Brannon, Melville etc
  2. Those in charge mismanaged the club since the 1970's (starting with Gellalty) by either by hiring piss poor managers, over spending on players or putting money into their own back pockets. Letting the club stumbling, not once, but twice into administration, either through negligence or vanity project's which where unobtainable, unsustainable and doomed to failure, and then, walking away to leave the next one to pick up the pieces.

It is sad to think that in the 1960's we made over £250k in transfer fees, but we didn't reinvest this back into the club via equipment or youth training and instead we pissed it up against the wall. I often wondered that if we were managed correctly at this time how different things may have been for us as a club? For example, letting Jim McLean wander across the road was probably one of the biggest mistakes this club has made and maybe we are still paying for this since.

I agree with you that if we are to be a Premier team, then we have to earn that and not just think we are 'a sleeping giant' waiting to awake. As you say, we have to start acting like a Premier club in the way we do things, but I see one flaw already in our plan to do that. If we are to start behaving like a premiership team, you don't give someone with no actual managerial experience the keys and say on you go son, regardless of who is around him.

Nicholl may have tons of experience, but that doesn't mean's that McPake is going to have to listen to his advice and learn from him, there is nothing to say that he will take his advice and use it. If McPake wants to do things his way, there is little Nicholl can do. You're also forgetting that Strachan is only at the club for the youth setup and has no direct involvement in the first team. Sure, McPake could ask him for his advice, but once on the pitch it is up to the manager then.

I would love nothing more than James McPake to prove me/us wrong, but I do not think that he has the experience required and needed for the Championship, never mind the premiership. I fear that our support will have neither the patience nor tolerance to allow him the time to learn this season, (never mind next season) and I don't think he will be able to handle the amount of pressure our fans will put on him when results don't go our way.

But, as I said, I would love him to prove me wrong, and maybe in 20 years time we will have a stand named after him.

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On 11/09/2019 at 20:12, barkblue said:

Knox's team finished mid-table in the Premier League. Duffy's squad that you've mentioned failed to win promotion from the 1st division.

There's no doubt that we had some seriously good players in that Duffy squad but to me there's no comparison between a team that finished 6th in the top flight and one that finished 3rd in the division below.

I liked Knox's squad and I agree it was a good squad, but the reason why I ignored it was that Knox was part of a bullying culture that was prevalent in the Scottish game at the time and before that time. I had a mate who was one of the best players I had ever played with. It was no surprise when he was signed by Morton in the Hal Steward years. He only lasted a fortnight. He had enough of Eric Smith, ex-Celtic, who was coach at Morton bullying and swearing at the young players. He told where he could shove his football.

We all know the Jim Jeffries story, how he grabbed a player by the throat and would not let go until his eyes were almost popping out of his head. How many young careers did Jim MacLean ruin during his years at Tannadice because of the same thing? The Arsenal players went on record saying that being managed by Wenger compared to George Graham was night and day. Wenger treated them like human beings.

I am sorry, I have no respect for Knox, Walter Smith, MacLean, Jeffries and the like. They are dinosaurs who could not make it in the game today simply because players today would soon tell them where to go. The Man U. players soon got rid of Knox leaving Ferguson to find another assistant.

 

 

 

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On 11/09/2019 at 09:50, Iain T Campbell said:

I think we have to get rid of this "big team" mentality, because er have not been a so-called big team since the mid-70's. We have been a yo-yo team with the only decent squad assembled in that period being the Duffy squad that consisted of Weighorst, MacCann, etc. The Bonetti era was simply a use of money that we did not have. Throughout this time er have grown used to bog-average players, because we cannot afford anything else.

We have to earn the right if we are going to become a Premier League team. There has to be vision and ambition shown by owners, management, and players. We have to start talking and behaving like a big club. You do not have to spend above your means to do that. The whole culture around the club has to be changed and that takes time.

I believe in McPake, Nicholl, Strachan, and now is the time I believe to do it. We have got decent signings in and although things have not been good the last two games I still believe the shoots of recovery are there but the new stadium has to be built. Old Dens is a dump and not s "big-team" stadium.

But but...the Premiership is the be-all and end-all and we need to be in it next season.  We need to be in it next week if possible.

We also need to spend whatever it takes to get there. 😁

Agree with everything you have said in the OP.

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4 hours ago, TheDarkBlues said:

I am going to give my honest opinion on the matters covered about our problems over the last 40 years and it is down to the following:

  1. Board/Directors: Who have either constantly run this ground into the ground through greed, negligence, selfishness or self promotion. You just have to look at names likes Gellalty, Bett, Dixon, Cook, Marrs, Brannon, Melville etc
  2. Those in charge mismanaged the club since the 1970's (starting with Gellalty) by either by hiring piss poor managers, over spending on players or putting money into their own back pockets. Letting the club stumbling, not once, but twice into administration, either through negligence or vanity project's which where unobtainable, unsustainable and doomed to failure, and then, walking away to leave the next one to pick up the pieces.

It is sad to think that in the 1960's we made over £250k in transfer fees, but we didn't reinvest this back into the club via equipment or youth training and instead we pissed it up against the wall. I often wonder that if we were managed correctly at this time how different things may have been for us as a club? For example, letting Jim McLean wander across the road was probably one of the biggest mistakes this club has made and maybe we are still paying for this since.

I agree with you that if we are to be a Premier team, then we have to earn that and not just think we are 'a sleeping giant' waiting to awake. As you say, we have to start acting like a Premier club in the way we do things, but I see one flaw already in our plan to do that. If we are to start behaving like a premiership team, you don't give someone with no actual managerial experience the keys and say on you go son, regardless of who is around him.

Nicholl may have tons of experience, but that doesn't mean's that McPake is going to have to listen to his advice and learn from him, there is nothing to say that he will take his advice and use it. If McPake want's to do things his way, there is little Nicholl can do. You're also forgetting that Strachan is only at the club for the youth setup and has no direct involvement in the first team. Sure, McPake could ask him for his advice, but once on the pitch it is up to the manager then.

I would love nothing more than James McPake to prove me/us wrong, but I do not think that he has the experience required and needed for the Championship, never mind the premiership. I fear that our support will have neither the patience nor tolerance to allow him the time to learn this season, (never mind next season) and I don't think he will be able to handle the amount of pressure our fans will put on him when results don't go our way.

But, as I said, I would love him to prove me wrong, and maybe in 20 years time we will have a stand named after him.

I agree with most of what you say. The Strachan remit will take time to bear fruit, and I would hope that McPake will start listening to Nichol's advice through time. During the derby he certainly did not seem to be doing that in relation to the McGhee injury. Nicholl seemed to be wanting him replaced.

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14 minutes ago, Iain T Campbell said:

I liked Knox's squad and I agree it was a good squad, but the reason why I ignored it was that Knox was part of a bullying culture that was prevalent in the Scottish game at the time and before that time. I had a mate who was one of the best players I had ever played with. It was no surprise when he was signed by Morton in the Hal Steward years. He only lasted a fortnight. He had enough of Eric Smith, ex-Celtic, who was coach at Morton bullying and swearing at the young players. He told where he could shove his football.

We all know the Jim Jeffries story, how he grabbed a player by the throat and would not let go until his eyes were almost popping out of his head. How many young careers did Jim MacLean ruin during his years at Tannadice because of the same thing? The Arsenal players went on record saying that being managed by Wenger compared to George Graham was night and day. Wenger treated them like human beings.

I am sorry, I have no respect for Knox, Walter Smith, MacLean, Jeffries and the like. They are dinosaurs who could not make it in the game today simply because players today would soon tell them where to go. The Man U. players soon got rid of Knox leaving Ferguson to find another assistant.

 

 

 

I was basing it purely on the product on the park Iain. Knox's team was the best, by far, I've watched regularly in my time following the team. That's not to justify any methods though.

Duffy flattered to deceive, unfortunately. How he couldn't get a squad containing the likes of Weighorst/Smith, Shaw, McCann, Hamilton, Tosh, Britton out of the 1st division is still a mystery to me. 

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10 hours ago, barkblue said:

Duffy flattered to deceive, unfortunately. How he couldn't get a squad containing the likes of Weighorst/Smith, Shaw, McCann, Hamilton, Tosh, Britton out of the 1st division is still a mystery to me. 

Duffy was probably the first player from my era that went from Dundee hero to Dundee manager. I think he had earned a bit of reputation as a shoe-string-budget talent spotter with Shaw, Britton, Charnley, Tosh, Power, Pagaeud and Hamilton all being good investments as well as introducing youth players like Neil McCann and Iain Anderson. However, watching that team struggle to grind out results against teams such as East Fife and Clydebank will always be a mystery and is of a similar situation as we find ourselves now. 

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10 hours ago, barkblue said:

I was basing it purely on the product on the park Iain. Knox's team was the best, by far, I've watched regularly in my time following the team. That's not to justify any methods though.

Duffy flattered to deceive, unfortunately. How he couldn't get a squad containing the likes of Weighorst/Smith, Shaw, McCann, Hamilton, Tosh, Britton out of the 1st division is still a mystery to me. 

I agree with you on both points. The Knox squad was better than good. The Duffy point I think comes down to the fact that he could not win crunch matches. We lost out to both Raith and St. Mirren who both were good teams, but we could not beat either when we needed to. Duffy got us to two finals that were both winnable, yet we lost both. I cannot remember whether it was a draw or a win we needed against Livingston when we got relegated, but again we did not manage it. Duffy, no doubt, was and still is the greatest player never to be capped for Scotland, but he had his shortcomings as a manager as his time at Hibs proved.

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Mclean was a rookie at the time of applying for the job,he'd coached a decent Dee side with some outstanding players.Obviously the board at the time went for experience,and we all know the outcome.As for Mclean,he wasn't under any pressure across the road,and wasn't an instant success,but he got the job done his way.May have been old school but that's the way most kids of that era were brought up,you can't blame those guys for using bad cop management. Knoxie's teams were hard and fittest I've seen,we ran over the top of some teams,but they could play football up there with the best sides.

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1 minute ago, GSD said:

Mclean was a rookie at the time of applying for the job,he'd coached a decent Dee side with some outstanding players.Obviously the board at the time went for experience,and we all know the outcome.As for Mclean,he wasn't under any pressure across the road,and wasn't an instant success,but he got the job done his way.May have been old school but that's the way most kids of that era were brought up,you can't blame those guys for using bad cop management. Knoxie's teams were hard and fittest I've seen,we ran over the top of some teams,but they could play football up there with the best sides.

I agree with all of that GSD ... And on the more general point which you yourself raised above. The impression I get on present day football, is there has maybe been too much of a power-shift from the managing staff to players. I've little time for the "bullying approach" in any aspect of social or professional life, but there is a need for respect & discipline ... &  I am not sure this is foemost in the mind of some of today's football players ...

That said, I'm glad we have move away in most areas, from the ruling with an iron rod. ... A wee bit more honesty & respect would go along way mind.

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1 hour ago, GSD said:

Mclean was a rookie at the time of applying for the job,he'd coached a decent Dee side with some outstanding players.Obviously the board at the time went for experience,and we all know the outcome.As for Mclean,he wasn't under any pressure across the road,and wasn't an instant success,but he got the job done his way.May have been old school but that's the way most kids of that era were brought up,you can't blame those guys for using bad cop management. Knoxie's teams were hard and fittest I've seen,we ran over the top of some teams,but they could play football up there with the best sides.

How many promising young careers were ruined before they even got off the ground by such an approach. My own mate was one of such although he went on to have a successful career in business. How many others were like him who just turned there back on football simply because they were treated like children and not adults. MacLean was a great coach but it is well known that he did destroy many a promising career by his high handed approach which was nothing short of tyranny and bullying. He was not alone, it was simply power going to their heads and you could not call it management in any sense of the word. Jock Wallace was another nutter. By the way I will let you into a secret, I had forgotten completely about Knox's squad, and I admit it was far better than Duffy's, although Duffy's squad would go down as the next best over the last years.

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McLean was a successful coach, he wasn't a great one. Many of the players who played under him hated him and he ruined an absolute sh*t load of boys careers by signing everyone and sundry to cherry pick the gems. 

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2 hours ago, WeighorstsWang said:

McLean was a successful coach, he wasn't a great one. Many of the players who played under him hated him and he ruined an absolute sh*t load of boys careers by signing everyone and sundry to cherry pick the gems. 

While I agree he was a total bastard to his players, he also brought out the best in them especially when they played us. I really disliked the guy, but you cannot take away what he achieved and did for the DABS. Whether he would have done the same for us is opened to debate considering our shitty board at the time.

Let's be honest, what we would have done for a manager like him at the time.

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11 hours ago, DFC1974 said:

Duffy was probably the first player from my era that went from Dundee hero to Dundee manager. I think he had earned a bit of reputation as a shoe-string-budget talent spotter with Shaw, Britton, Charnley, Tosh, Power, Pagaeud and Hamilton all being good investments as well as introducing youth players like Neil McCann and Iain Anderson. However, watching that team struggle to grind out results against teams such as East Fife and Clydebank will always be a mystery and is of a similar situation as we find ourselves now. 

I'm guessing we're around the same age mate. I was aware of the playing past of Wallace and Jocky but didn't see either play. Duffy was a hero to me and at the time he could do no wrong as a manager. Hindsight shows something different though and the fact that outside of Dundee he only got on short crack at the top flight kind of says it all. He did provide entertaining football but didn't guarantee results alongside it.

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