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What Are Your Personal Reflections On Dundee: Their Relelegation & Current Position?

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Strangely, when DFC got relegated last season, I felt relaxed & accepting of the situation we found ourselves in ...

In fact the period before in the Premiership was in the main kinda getting me down. At the start of each season, knowing probably that whoever was gonna be contesting the Top Six, recent past experience (under various managers) was telling me ... Not to be looking for DFC's name up there in the fight for a top six place. And as the season progressed quite a bit of negativity took hold of me as it seemed to be again another season where my thoughts were focused on a game at a time, on who in the bottom half of the table we might beat or draw with to pick up the odd point to keep out the "danger area" As I indicated at the start, when relegation was certain, I approached it with (in part anyway) a sense of relief.

Much of the thinking behind this I suppose, was knowing (or assuming) that in this lower division, DFC were at least in a position where I felt they could compete against any of the teams. I never thought this season season would be a walkover ... In fact, under our new manager, I accepted from the start of this season JMP would at least need a full season to "bed-in" (And I still believe this) So I approached this season with "not too ambitious expectations" ...Not thinking of promotion, or even  getting into the play-offs.

Partly, this was around my personal health. And that included my mental health ... The strain & depression that comes from following a game, where a DFC win is expected, & simply doesn't happen. And then trying to work through the disappointment & pain that follows a poor, or non-performance, that means another loss of points. I understand we all go through this to different degrees. Even after this, although I still held the view, that the bigger picture was more important (looking at the whole season as a chance for us/new manager to find our feet) another defeat or poor performance from the Club/Team we all love was just as hard to take as it ever was.

Do others feel the same? If our "slow" forum of late with a big emphasis on too many negative posts (imo) it does look like we are all really suffering bad.

Not criticising anyone but I've noticed that some posters on here, appear to be totally unnaffected, or even uninterested, by Dundee United performances.

Genuinely I say, "Good for them" I only wish I could remain as totally detached as others seem to be. Each to their own however I suppose. No me though.

Not gonna go intae the floggin they gave us (we awe ken that wisnae easy tae tak) But any doubt I may have had, that what they did, didnae really bother

me evaporated that recent game they had at home against Arbroath when they stole the game 2-1 with 2 goals in the last two minutes...Eh was seek that

day !! Any pretence I had of "couldnae care less whit they day" definitely vanished then.

But enough of that ... Saturday it's our turn ...  C'mon the Dark Blues ... LET'S DO IT:chaplin:

 

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When we first came up 5/6 years ago we made obvious progress and arguably continued to do so in Hartley's second season, despite a disappointing 8th placed finished. Disappointed by an 8th placed finished probably says it all about where this club needs to be to meet to meet fan expectation.

Since selling Stewart & Hemmings we consistently declined season on season. Constant attempts at quick fixes and trying to reinvent how to win a football game meant that any sort of consistency (widely regarded as the key to success) on and off the park was non existent.

The SPL fixture list can be cruel for a struggling side. You can't afford to have a poor result against a Hamilton away or Motherwell at home because your next 4 fixture could be Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen. All of a sudden you've gone 6 games without a win and the fans loose heart.

Even we had stayed up last season, all the evidence suggests we would have struggled again. I'm not sure the support could have coped with another season of winning once at home. So I am relieved in a sense that we have gone down a level. It has forced the Americans to really consider why things weren't working and credit it to them they have tried to change things. Hopefully that means when we do go back up we will have learned from past mistakes.

This season has been a mixed bag but I definitely see there being positive steps. We have a better squad than last season IMO. Our home form (in the league anyway) has been good. Actually looking forward to a Dundee home game is a massive change from last season in itself. Away from home of course hasn't been great and we need to find a style away that suits us. We are not a million miles away from being a team that can win away though, based on games I've seen.

United with Shankland and a settled squad were always going to be the favourites to win this league. For us, with a new squad of players, the minimum expectation was to be in the play offs and then, by the end of the season, genuinely look like a team that could win them. I've seen enough to say we will be in the play offs at least. I think the general consensus among fans, even the doom and gloomers, is that this team will only get better too.

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Thought this would be a rebuilding season. Hoped for victories against DUFC and play off spot. Expecting the team to improve as the season progresses and by the end of the season we might be well placed to win promotion.

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12 minutes ago, BCram said:

Thought this would be a rebuilding season. Hoped for victories against DUFC and play off spot. Expecting the team to improve as the season progresses and by the end of the season we might be well placed to win promotion.

I personally wish we could drop this 'rebuilding shite' after every season. I would like us to start trying to keep hold of the decent players we have so we can have a settled squad for a good few seasons and only bring in players if an when needed.

This rebuilding every year I believe has been our downfall and it contributes to the shite we see on the park..... because we are always 'rebuilding' our team!

Don't get me wrong, I like to see transfers and new players coming into the squad, but sometimes I feel that we do i just for shits and giggles....... especially January time! 😂

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Thanks for response Edin-Dee ... With the forum (imo) going through a quiet period, I suggested it might help if other poster/contributors could try to start some new topics in a effort to stimulate a more active forum. I understand in doing so, it could give the forum a lop-sided arificial look ... But on the other hand, it can be surprising what can develop from a topic that initially shows little appeal (And I certainly will never complain to anyone i fmy own posts go off-topic, ... As long as it creates a little interest & adds a few more posts to the forum.

That said friend, your own comments above are well on topic & have added some more thoughts to the original, which I hope can develop into a discussion.

There were limits to what DFC could achieve in the Premiership ... especially against the Clubs you highlighted. And this understandably put a cloud over being there (I'm sure others felt the season was "laid-out" for DFC, even before the first game was played) The departure of Stewart & Hemmings, although probably inevitable, was a huge blow for Hartley & definitely for me & the DFC Fans, which some might say we have never really recovered from.

As much as I hate to lose a game on the day, I am no way near the doom & gloom stage when I think of how things will pan out given time ... Maybe not this season but the next one or two seasons ahead.

And I am not saying that, just because I am the (self elected) President of the "Happy Clappy Club"

We have as of today, reached the dizy heights of 5 (That's 9 if I include the voices in my head):chaplin:

My Key Man Chomp would get the figure up to ten again. But it appears he has went into hiding :ph34r:

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I have been following DFC since the eighties and in all that time there has not really been much to shout about. We have had some real gems of players in that time, iain Ferguson, Cammy Fraser, Stuart mckimmie, Tosh Mckinlay, Jim Duffy, john brown, Bobby Connor, Keith Wright, Tommy Coyne, Morten Weighorst, Neil McCann, Billy dodds. These players were great to watch on their day but in essence we have always been flirting with or actually getting relegation. I think it's probably the same for most other mid to bottom sides. The problem is everything is geared towards two teams and will continue like this unless drastic changes are done to the league structure. The old firm already have a big money advantage and are basically guaranteed European football every year. That's the way they want it. Only 4 teams have ever won the Premier league, it is not a competition its a vehicle to suit two teams. I for one would like to go back to two leagues in Scotland and play each other twice

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Just a short add-on to my post above ...  I do know quite a few members do not like the term ...  "work in progress" or "rookie manager"

And I've got to agree, I'm not enamoured by any of these terms myself. But (imo) I do believe JMP is still very much in the learning stage.

There is no guarantee he will turn out to be the right man. He may well fail. But either way, I believe he needs to be given reasonable time.

Some posters have also said, he's possibly not making enough use of the more experienced staff around. I'm not sure what this based on.

Our manager comes over to me, as someone who would listen & take into account all comments. In fact maybe that's part of the problem.

Maybe it is time he took full control & had more faith in his own decison-making. I go along with Admin John's post..."a more settled team"

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57 minutes ago, TheDarkBlues said:

I personally wish we could drop this 'rebuilding sh**e' after every season. I would like us to start trying to keep hold of the decent players we have so we can have a settled squad for a good few seasons and only bring in players if an when needed.

This rebuilding every year I believe has been our downfall and it contributes to the sh**e we see on the park..... because we are always 'rebuilding' our team!

Don't get me wrong, I like to see transfers and new players coming into the squad, but sometimes I feel that we do i just for shits and giggles....... especially January time! 😂

Couldn’t agree more. 

We should have got to a point in the Spl when every transfer window we should have been looking to bring in 2/3 players to improve a settled squad. For me once we started going down the continuous rebuilding route it was only going to end one way 

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17 minutes ago, Dee Forever said:

I have been following DFC since the eighties and in all that time there has not really been much to shout about. We have had some real gems of players in that time, iain Ferguson, Cammy Fraser, Stuart mckimmie, Tosh Mckinlay, Jim Duffy, john brown, Bobby Connor, Keith Wright, Tommy Coyne, Morten Weighorst, Neil McCann, Billy dodds. These players were great to watch on their day but in essence we have always been flirting with or actually getting relegation. I think it's probably the same for most other mid to bottom sides. The problem is everything is geared towards two teams and will continue like this unless drastic changes are done to the league structure. The old firm already have a big money advantage and are basically guaranteed European football every year. That's the way they want it. Only 4 teams have ever won the Premier league, it is not a competition its a vehicle to suit two teams. I for one would like to go back to two leagues in Scotland and play each other twice

Thanks Dee Forever, for your post above ... And certainly the kind of post that adds to the discussion.

However, maybe I've got a hang-up on promoting New Topics but your comments above is an example.

Although we've spoken on many occasions about the format of the Divisions, is it time we did it again?

Your whole post & definitely your final comments is a topic worth again discussing...Maybe New Topic?

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3 minutes ago, Dundeefc1783 said:

Couldn’t agree more. 

We should have got to a point in the Spl when every transfer window we should have been looking to bring in 2/3 players to improve a settled squad. For me once we started going down the continuous rebuilding route it was only going to end one way 

There is something about a new signing that raises the spirits ... (AND WE ARE NO SLOW IN DEMANDING ONE ON HERE)

Maybe more so, when we were in the Premiership, when defeats were more the order of the day. And we awe needed a lift.

It is probably still the case we need a signing or two to make it all click. But I don't think we are far away from a good team.

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Reflecting on my time as a Dundee supporter is like reflecting on life. My family are long time supporters of the club, my father took me from a very early age, I have seen triumph (Winning the league), I have seen tragedy (2 Administrations). I have seen good teams, bad teams, but my passion has never diminished. When I moved to the US, I thought it would be hard, but I still look at the Dundee news every day and still see as many games as I can through DeeTV and the away teams service if available. I am guessing at my age there is nothing that will change that and sometimes I ask myself why, but its in my very dark blue blood. I worry about the future, my son who lives there supports Dundee but does not have my passion. his kid is not into Dundee. This is where the importance of a good team who entertains and can draw people in lies. If you can't generate that excitement and passion then we will continue to decline. The Scottish game is in a bit of a mess, the Premiership is a two horse race, if you get a good player who you can build a team round, they are gone. It is almost impossible to see how there can be a change that will re-ignite teams at both domestic and international level. Strong, Tall, hard teams proliferate, no tanner ball players exist, skill is secondary to brawn. Kids are not playing on the streets as I did, too much tactics not enough fun. 

But like life there are ups and downs, but hope persists and I believe in my lifetime we will see a strong Dundee again. This season its about top 4 and a playoff place and if we do that I will be happy. 

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The three seasons fighting relegation had highs and lows but eventually it became depressing with so many poor performances and I was not too upset when relegated ..... although we should have been mid table with the resources we have.  This season has been a little flat apart from the Aberdeen game  but still really enjoying Dens and as enthusiatic as ever to the endless despair of my good lady......

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4 hours ago, barkblue said:

Now, I know that some folk will take this post too literally but that's the way it goes. However, I was bored rigid in the top flight. It reminded me of Jocky's first season back in the Premier(whateveritwasatthetime) until Luna and Artero turned up. Grind out results, an occasional decent display, or get beat. It was turgid and boring - one home win where Steven Tweed scored the only goal (against Hearts or Motherwell I think) summing up one of the very few occasions where a win wasn't enough to stop me going back to my car utterly miserable. 

The first season back under Hartley and then the days when Stewart and Hemmings (and the DOON derby) were all pretty decent 😉 but the rest of it bored me stupid (not that that took long) because watching my team play boring unattractive football at home to try and snatch points from the old firm or Aberdeen or Hearts just doesn't make for a good afternoon out. Although admittedly derby wins and owning Rangers at Dens for a wee while was fun. Watching the likes of Hamilton, Motherwell or St Johnstone 2, 3 or 4 times a season though drove me to distraction and it all genuinely had me questioning if I liked football anymore.

Following that up with the awful but well intentioned stuff under McCann and then the sh*t show we got under McIntyre simply burst the bubble. McPake was a breath of fresh air though and with what seemed like sensible signings and nine other teams to see that I haven't seen in a good few years I was really enthused about this season. Not so much that I thought we'd be more competitive (and we are) but at least it would break the cycle of rubbish I was paying to watch (from both teams usually) every week. 

The honest truth, after what was a good, eventful comeback draw against Dunfermline, is that I haven't enjoyed a single game this season. Teams come to Dens with little intent, leaving us constantly forcing the pace with a team that doesn't look like that's the role it wants - and when we really do open up (the derby or QotS away) we look more likely to lose goals than we do score them. 

I'm beginning to wonder if it's the classic 'it's not you, it's me' and that I'm just falling out of love with the whole thing. However my passion for the club itself remains undiminished. The actual football however, well that's a different thing - but then I don't really enjoy watching it on the TV anymore either because most teams spend around 70% of the games not even looking to attack or score but just stroking the ball about aimlessly.

Anyway, sorry, I've veered off topic at the end there.

I'm desperate for promotion (although I won't be gnashing my teeth if we don't get it). Not because I enjoy watching us playing in the top flight but because it's the sole purpose of this season. If that aim is achieved, however, it might just bore me to tears all over again.

Problem is mate, if we don’t get back up in one or two years we could easily be in financial trouble, Caley thistle  loo to be in big trouble...

Apparently If they don’t get the cash injection they need, there going with a skeleton squad next season made up mostly of kids...

I agree with much of what your saying tho  with regards to the boredom factor etc...

£24 to watch team get beat most weeks ain’t much fun...

Hopefully we go up this season, and it would have been a case of 1 step back two forward.

Edited by Mr Sensible
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A big part of the problem for me is that we sell players for next to nothing and don't have the funds to replace them with similar quality.

It's shocking how little we got for Bain, Ralph, Caulker, Hendry, Kamara, Wighton, Stewart, Hemmings, between letting them go for next to nothing and go at the last minute of transfer windows it's no wonder we were limited in the standard of players available and affordable to replace them.

There have been some players at Dens over the last few seasons that make Vince Mennie look like a Ballon d'Or winner

 

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6 minutes ago, Harold Finch said:

There have been some players at Dens over the last few seasons that make Vince Mennie look like a Ballon d'Or winner

The name Marc Klok should ensure that no one ever says a bad word about Mince ever again. 

At least Yordi Teijsse looked like he'd been introduced to a football. 

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I imagine Nelms saying “You can have whatever you want as long as it’s from the Poundshop.” Why else would Klok, Yordi and Arturo have walked through the door?

Had Hartley lost his discipline with transfers? Was he trying to make a point  to the club about what you get for £800 a week? We’ll probably never know.

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7 hours ago, Cobra said:

I imagine Nelms saying “You can have whatever you want as long as it’s from the Poundshop.” Why else would Klok, Yordi and Arturo have walked through the door?

Had Hartley lost his discipline with transfers? Was he trying to make a point  to the club about what you get for £800 a week? We’ll probably never know.

I actually think Hartley was simply one of those people (We've all met them in our professional lives) who was simply promoted above his level, albeit slightly.  In most jobs you can get away with it to an extent but as a football manager not so much.   I just think he had no answers to the problems he was encountering - he said as much himself.  god only knows how he'd have got on had he joined Cardiff when/if he had the chance. 

Still have a soft spot for him.   

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Do any of the statto's out there have a running tally of how many players we have had on the books since Brown was manager? That right there is the problem, imo.

FPS have given all of our managers extra time to try and solve the problems, but a lack of continuity and a settled squad is what we need to solve first.

It's no coincidence that them down the road are flying this season as they've just topped up their squad this summer, with some quality too.

It was evident early last season that we were going to struggle, then overhauled a whole squad with a high % being from the loan market which, in hindsight, was never going to work either.

I'm glad we came down in a sense, so that we can settle down and work away at trying to improve our recruitment and medium term player retention rate without the bold comments and media attention.

We will kick on to the level above we are currently playing at, post Christmas. We are a decent sized club in the Championship but need to adjust our expectations to the level we are at and not be arrogant, like other clubs, about how big we are and where we deserve to be.

Happy with a play-off spot, expecting to be just outside based on current form / performances.

 

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10 hours ago, Cobra said:

I imagine Nelms saying “You can have whatever you want as long as it’s from the Poundshop.” Why else would Klok, Yordi and Arturo have walked through the door?

Had Hartley lost his discipline with transfers? Was he trying to make a point  to the club about what you get for £800 a week? We’ll probably never know.

To me that's very unfair on the board. Hartley ended up rummaging in the bargain bin because he had already built massive squads filled with similar players and still couldn't make it work on the park. Hartley, McCann and McIntyre signed (and paid off - using a huge proportion of their budgets) a ginormous amount of players, rather than simply spending it much more wisely on fewer, better footballers.

To be fair to him, Yordi was a punt not meant for the first team, but Hartley's inability to sign a real striker thrust him into a starting spot. Klok and Arturo however, were mid-season panic signings when managers are always scraping the barrel (I think Hartley scraped right through to the ground though). 

Obviously I don't know this for certain but I'd be pretty confident that every manager under FPS has been allowed to go over budget every season since Keyes came in. Now, how they've spent that money is another matter entirely. 

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