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We never seem to be able to string two decent halves of football together these days.  Its either slow/not interested/shyte performances in either the first or second half and being decent in the other one.  Yesterday was one of those where most of the team looked like they had been taking drugs at half time.  OK Thistle changed their personnel/system/attitude at half time but why is it so f**cking difficult to mark opposition players tightly, match their runs, compete and find our own players with passes.  It is eleven vs eleven after all.  Is it as simple as saying that one or two of our players were not pulling their weight?  Who on earth was supposed to be marking GGH at that corner and thought it would be OK to let him make that run unchallenged?  From the Cox all I could see was a lot of finger pointing and arguing in the aftermath.  Same for their first two goals - I couldn't see what really went on due to the distance. 

In that 2nd half, neither Forster or Meekings looked like they wanted to go near the big fella they brought on at half time and likewise the midfield looked they had been instructed to let the Thistle players make runs and not go within 5 yards of them.

The unfathomable subbies killed us off in the end - I have no doubt about that and I wouldn't have made any of them but the lack of on-field management to sort things out and maybe change things is obvious and needs to be sorted out.  Meekings may be club captain but he is anything but a leader on the pitch imo.

One incident in the 2nd half struck me.  Dorrans was ready to take a free kick into their penalty box and it looked like he was looking back at JMP who appeared to be instructing him on what kind of ball to play in.  wtf.

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I agree meekings is poor,but I thought forster won every header he went for. And the amount of times he was left on his own in possession with no out ball was criminal.

The blame firmly lies with the manager,he takes off 2 influential midfielder's and replaces them with kids.

Add to that leaving a lone striker on who is A.not playing very well and B.is probably knackered from playing up front on his own. It just proves he doesn't have a clue.

And I have not even mentioned playing mackie out of position.

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First half was probably best we have played as a team and I’m thinking this is really coming together. Very fluent. Dorrans and Byrne absolute running the game creating plenty chances. Second half it was like they got spooked for some reason. The sub off Byrne going off completely changed the game. He was starting to look the player that all fans want to see. Then he goes off and then McGowan went off. The midfield was gone. Massive opportunity missed yesterday. Could have been so different if Kano header went in at 1-1 then they near enough go up park and score 

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What worried me a little bit this summer was when we started to stack the squad well in different positions. It's something we've missed for years but I get the impression that a lot of McPake's subs are to try and give players game time to keep them happy.

Yesterday was simply not the time to f**k about in that way. Fresh legs on the wing is a positive way to try and defend a league but not at the expense of one of your well performing central players with some dig. Similar with Byrne who had been playing the position well all day and then Finlay come on (who has often played with Byrne).

He had many of his own crazy moments but looking back, Hartley would never have done that. It reminded me a bit of McCann in the closing stages of a massive relegation 6 pointer v Hamilton where he decided to bring on young Dan Jeffries for the last ten minutes and he gave a penalty away. For all the preparing you do in the week and nice football (I thought we did look sharp yesterday, Gowser and Hemmings had a nice link up) there's an in game decision making that can make or break you.

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That second half was a disgrace and the 3 subs lost the game for us.

What was McPake thinking? 

Byrne was starting to make a couple of mistakes hence why I think he got taken off for Robertson who was very poor when he came on. He looked his age.

McPake I would send back to Rangers.

Todd? A disgrace of a player. I would love for someone to tell me what he brings to the tean? Harry, you like Todd but he is utter guff. 

Seen people saying he would be better in the middle? Nae chance. One good game against us in the cup and that's what we signed him on the back of.

He's not even worth bringing on.

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Every player makes mistakes. He shouldn’t have been took off. 
mcpake doesn’t track run for first goal and he’s just on the park. He should have been fresh 

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On 20/10/2019 at 09:43, J_Kitamirike said:

Todd? A disgrace of a player. I would love for someone to tell me what he brings to the tean? Harry, you like Todd but he is utter guff.

I don't really get the ire with Todd after Saturday?

When Byrne come off, the link up between the defense and midfield collapsed and the passing through the park just stopped. Todd was then introduced a few minutes later and pretty much saw no passes into feet.

As a player, he's got a very decent work rate and loves roaming the pitch playing one twos. It's probably more effective for someone like Queen of the South when they've got a lot more space in the last third but it doesn't lead to as many goal scoring chances when teams sit in on you and he's not got anyone of similar mindset to play off of (whilst he has made an impact with McDaid before - I think both of them compliment each other). Play him over Mackie in the next Derby and I think he'd probably do well in that circumstance.

At some point, we have to ask ourselves why players play for divisional rivals and rack up assists/goals etc, becoming pivotal players in the process to the extent that their form collapses without them, yet they arrive at Dundee and are suddenly pish. We seem to be decades behind other clubs, Livi pretty much go all Moneyball and sign guys that would be derided as poor signings for ourselves yet make them a very effective unit. I'd argue that most players around this level are very similar in raw ability but some teams just have much better plans for them than others.

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38 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't really get the ire with Todd after Saturday?

When Byrne come off, the link up between the defense and midfield collapsed and the passing through the park just stopped. Todd was then introduced a few minutes later and pretty much saw no passes into feet.

As a player, he's got a very decent work rate and loves roaming the pitch playing one twos. It's probably more effective for someone like Queen of the South when they've got a lot more space in the last third but it doesn't lead to as many goal scoring chances when teams sit in on you and he's not got anyone of similar mindset to play off of (whilst he has made an impact with McDaid before - I think both of them compliment each other). Play him over Mackie in the next Derby and I think he'd probably do well in that circumstance.

At some point, we have to ask ourselves why players play for divisional rivals and rack up assists/goals etc, becoming pivotal players in the process to the extent that their form collapses without them, yet they arrive at Dundee and are suddenly pish. We seem to be decades behind other clubs, Livi pretty much go all Moneyball and sign guys that would be derided as poor signings for ourselves yet make them a very effective unit. I'd argue that most players around this level are very similar in raw ability but some teams just have much better plans for them than others.

Excellent point. We spend too much time looking over our shoulder and not focussing on our own players and how we want our team to play. Being fitter, pressing harder, actually getting stuck in - all over the park - for me that's how you make the team better. It's like we're playing some kind of touch rugby against the All Blacks who are smashing us up with full contact rugby. Sorry for the very confused metaphor but I don't know what the football equivalent of "touch rugby" is!

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The immediately noticeable thing when Byrne went off for me was we were back to the short tidy square passing again which stopped us getting forward. I dont have the same dislike of Todd either. Dont see why we need Mackie when we have him and I dont think young McPake offers us anything that we dont already have, again via the likes of Todd. The real worrying thing for me is that we have Johnson, who I suspect is our top score sitting on the bench when Hemmings is tiring  and Nelson who is far more effective wide than McPake and they cant get a place. Johnson and Nelson would have given us running and scoring power.

I wouldn't be in the slightest put out if the manager moved over. This league is still within our grasp but not the way our management team handles it. So frustrating.

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47 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't really get the ire with Todd after Saturday?

When Byrne come off, the link up between the defense and midfield collapsed and the passing through the park just stopped. Todd was then introduced a few minutes later and pretty much saw no passes into feet.

As a player, he's got a very decent work rate and loves roaming the pitch playing one twos. It's probably more effective for someone like Queen of the South when they've got a lot more space in the last third but it doesn't lead to as many goal scoring chances when teams sit in on you and he's not got anyone of similar mindset to play off of (whilst he has made an impact with McDaid before - I think both of them compliment each other). Play him over Mackie in the next Derby and I think he'd probably do well in that circumstance.

At some point, we have to ask ourselves why players play for divisional rivals and rack up assists/goals etc, becoming pivotal players in the process to the extent that their form collapses without them, yet they arrive at Dundee and are suddenly pish. We seem to be decades behind other clubs, Livi pretty much go all Moneyball and sign guys that would be derided as poor signings for ourselves yet make them a very effective unit. I'd argue that most players around this level are very similar in raw ability but some teams just have much better plans for them than others.

Because for seasons now we've signed heaps of players, then worried about somehow fitting them into a system later. And its been an utter shambles.

For example - why sign Hemmings when we already had Johnson and Nelson - then persist with 1 up top! 

Sign players to a system - not the other way round, and we'd maybe be a lot harder to beat for a start.

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Just now, Sebastiano Nela said:

Because for seasons now we've signed heaps of players, then worried about somehow fitting them into a system later. And its been an utter shambles.

For example - why sign Hemmings when we already had Johnson and Nelson - then persist with 1 up top! 

Sign players to a system - not the other way round, and we'd maybe be a lot harder to beat for a start.

I can see that argument.

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Anyone else get the impression there’s not much fire in Mcpakes  belly, his press conferences and interviews before games are normally fairly uninspiring and dull.

To think he has only played two upfront in one game this season, away to arguably the best team in the league is one of those decisions that I would love to know how he came to that.

Edited by Mr Sensible

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How about playing a 4-4-2 again?

Bring Kerr back and move Mcghee beside Forster.

Dorrans and Byrne should be more than strong enough in the middle with McDaid and Nelson out wide?

Hemmings and Johnson up top or one up with Gowser in support?

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7 minutes ago, Mr Sensible said:

Anyone else get the impression there’s not much fire in Mcpakes  belly, his press conferences and interviews before games are normally fairly uninspiring and dull.

To think he has only played two upfront in one game this season, away to arguably the best team in the league is one of those decisions that I would love to know how he came to that.

Said it before on another thread a while back but I often find our manager's to be the complete opposite of how they were as a player. 

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1 minute ago, J_Kitamirike said:

How about playing a 4-4-2 again?

Bring Kerr back and move Mcghee beside Forster.

Dorrans and Byrne should be more than strong enough in the middle with McDaid and Nelson out wide?

Hemmings and Johnson up top or one up with Gowser in support?

Saturday's formation was doing great for most of the first half. We had enough possession and good goalscoring chances to win the game comfortably. Poor finishing and poor substitutions cost us big time. If everyone had done their jobs we'd have won handsomely with the starting formation. I don't see the need to rip things up and start again when we were so close to getting things right on Saturday.

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13 minutes ago, Mr Sensible said:

Anyone else get the impression there’s not much fire in Mcpakes  belly, his press conferences and interviews before games are normally fairly uninspiring and dull.

To think he has only played two upfront in one game this season, away to arguably the best team in the league is one of those decisions that I would love to know how he came to that.

Played 2 up top first game of the season away to Dunfermline and also away to QotS. 

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29 minutes ago, an-dee said:

Played 2 up top first game of the season away to Dunfermline and also away to QotS. 

My apologies regarding those games

Prob even more baffling that he doesn’t play two up top at Dens

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So we won't make those mistakes again and will wipe the floor with everybody now I hope. 

Bit odd just one striker as with two we'd have been about 5-0 up before they scored. 

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19 minutes ago, blueboy said:

So we won't make those mistakes again and will wipe the floor with everybody now I hope. 

Bit odd just one striker as with two we'd have been about 5-0 up before they scored. 

I would always play two upfront at dens

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1 hour ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Said it before on another thread a while back but I often find our manager's to be the complete opposite of how they were as a player. 

Yes I’m not in the camp of wanting him waving his hands like Martin O’Neill.

Just feel he is very subdued talking to the press, could be totally different behind closed doors....

He would have been hurting bad on Saturday although much of it was self inflicted.

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