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2 hours ago, Parcbara said:

There was nobody around me in the Bobby Cox, to the left of the goal, booing but I did hear it to my right someplace , I think directed towards our centre half, but to be honest it didn't seem to last and I could hear people calling out those doing it. There was a bit more in different areas when we got to 4-3. But that was frustration and while it doesn't help the team, i can understand it given the QoS episode a few weeks ago. Our performances  this season would test the patience of a saint. I also agree with the comments about the size of the crowd. Didn't look like four thousand odd to me. But that is what this team as it stands (or plays and doesn't achieve) will do to gates, and season tickets next year. The product being as bad as it has cant do anything else but reduce gates.

Whoever is directing what we do on the park got it right for the first sixty minutes but got it so wrong, yet again, after that. Playing against ten men changes things but we gave them so much hope by resorting to our normal game. 

I'm in the Cox just to the right of the goal. For me there were a few to my left (including five or six booing Forster) and one or two to my right. Many more telling them to shut up than actually booing.

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2 hours ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Got to disagree with this. We could clearly hear the booing in the Bobby Cox from the Main Stand and it certainly sounded like a fair bit more than 20 individuals. The negative shouts from the Main Stand weren't nearly as loud and there were a lot more than 20 involved in that. Surely this stuff is significant if it's affecting the players on the park in a negative sense, Cammy had a go at the fans, McGowan didn't celebrate the goals but ran towards the home fans cupping his ears when he scored. I think the players are pissed off by it but need to stay as professional as possible so they can't really do or say to much even though I think they'd like to. They've got to be thinking what the hell have they got to do to win us over. 

I'm convinced that 20 is a maximum, they were loud and probably sounded more out of the stand.

20 people in 1,000 is 2% and statistically insignificant. Wasn't really meaning it in terms of the effect on the players who might be better concentrating on those fans that are behind them rather than having a go at or cupping their ears to the (possibly) 2% that are having a go. Why risk pissing off 98% of the support to prove a point to 2% - just stupid for me because the 2% will be back doing what they enjoy next time whilst you might lose a few more of the 98%.

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18 hours ago, CW 90+3 02/05/16 said:

Fair enough.

I did put a question mark at the end of it as I obviously couldnt judge as I wasn't there.

I certainly wasn't aiming the question at you or anyone individually as there have been dozens of posters all saying the same thing about it.

I just think we focus a bit much on a few individuals in the crowd at times on this subject but now appreciate from your response that it was much more than that yesterday and its pretty embarrassing tbh.

 

Sorry mate, with hindsight I did jump down your throat a bit there.

 

9 hours ago, Prince Buster said:

Probably twenty or less people booing in The Coxy, all the usual suspects that have a go every game. Probably 1,000 people at least in the stand, I'll leave you to work out the percentage and decide yourself if it's significant. I'll give you a clue though - it's not significant.

I'll accept that when the stands are quiet, as they were right after Dunfermline scored their first, a small number of people booing can be quite loud; particularly as the boo boys are really just attention seeking and want to be noticed so do it very loudly hoping others will follow. The worst thing you can do with these people is to react to them as it simply encourages them.

I get where you're coming from PB. In pure Rachel Riley terms 20 or so, or maybe 60 or so across the whole ground is hardly massive percentages. However, it is your second part that's key.

The ground was pretty much four fifths empty, there was basically no singing all afternoon and it was very quiet. So when the main noise we and the players can hear - when we're 4-1 to the good - is booing - and let's not get too specific here so let's add in the odd angry shout and the general disgruntled noises - how significant is that? Well, from what I saw  - Gowser's general unhappiness, Cammy clearly shouting at the crowd and the team - bar one player - not acknowledging the support at the end of the game - never mind the down turn in our fortunes that came after the booing, then the impact feels significant to me. Now, none of that is scientific, so I can't prove a correlation between it all, so it's all a matter of opinion. Although I'd wager that Forster was even less confident after being booed after another f**k up than he would have been had the fans backed him (which admittedly some did the next time he touched the ball after the booing)

What isn't a matter of opinion is how it impacted on me and my enjoyment of attending the game, or my desire to be in beside folk who want to carry on like that on a Saturday afternoon. I didn't react at the time (although I have in the past) but found myself being one of very few applauding a winning team at the game's conclusion. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed.

Dens has been an odd place to spend time in since Hartley's final season and Saturday was possibly the nadir for me. Maybe the crux of it is, as @chomp my root suggests, that I should find something else to do with what little free time I have. 

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19 minutes ago, barkblue said:

Sorry mate, with hindsight I did jump down your throat a bit there.

 

I get where you're coming from PB. In pure Rachel Riley terms 20 or so, or maybe 60 or so across the whole ground is hardly massive percentages. However, it is your second part that's key.

The ground was pretty much four fifths empty, there was basically no singing all afternoon and it was very quiet. So when the main noise we and the players can hear - when we're 4-1 to the good - is booing - and let's not get too specific here so let's add in the odd angry shout and the general disgruntled noises - how significant is that? Well, from what I saw  - Gowser's general unhappiness, Cammy clearly shouting at the crowd and the team - bar one player - not acknowledging the support at the end of the game - never mind the down turn in our fortunes that came after the booing, then the impact feels significant to me. Now, none of that is scientific, so I can't prove a correlation between it all, so it's all a matter of opinion. Although I'd wager that Forster was even less confident after being booed after another f**k up than he would have been had the fans backed him (which admittedly some did the next time he touched the ball after the booing)

What isn't a matter of opinion is how it impacted on me and my enjoyment of attending the game, or my desire to be in beside folk who want to carry on like that on a Saturday afternoon. I didn't react at the time (although I have in the past) but found myself being one of very few applauding a winning team at the game's conclusion. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed.

Dens has been an odd place to spend time in since Hartley's final season and Saturday was possibly the nadir for me. Maybe the crux of it is, as @chomp my root suggests, that I should find something else to do with what little free time I have. 

I had some initial guilt at the start of the season and sort of half thought I'd probably get half season books but to be honest, I've preferred away games for years, the atmosphere at Dens is crap, you could end up moving from seat to seat trying to find a 'safe space' away from all the hateful bollox that gets shouted. You have to question why some folk go, they seem to be constantly disappointed with whats on show. 😞

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30 minutes ago, barkblue said:

I get where you're coming from PB. In pure Rachel Riley terms 20 or so, or maybe 60 or so across the whole ground is hardly massive percentages. However, it is your second part that's key.

The ground was pretty much four fifths empty, there was basically no singing all afternoon and it was very quiet. So when the main noise we and the players can hear - when we're 4-1 to the good - is booing - and let's not get too specific here so let's add in the odd angry shout and the general disgruntled noises - how significant is that? Well, from what I saw  - Gowser's general unhappiness, Cammy clearly shouting at the crowd and the team - bar one player - not acknowledging the support at the end of the game - never mind the down turn in our fortunes that came after the booing, then the impact feels significant to me. Now, none of that is scientific, so I can't prove a correlation between it all, so it's all a matter of opinion. Although I'd wager that Forster was even less confident after being booed after another f**k up than he would have been had the fans backed him (which admittedly some did the next time he touched the ball after the booing)

What isn't a matter of opinion is how it impacted on me and my enjoyment of attending the game, or my desire to be in beside folk who want to carry on like that on a Saturday afternoon. I didn't react at the time (although I have in the past) but found myself being one of very few applauding a winning team at the game's conclusion. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed.

Dens has been an odd place to spend time in since Hartley's final season and Saturday was possibly the nadir for me. Maybe the crux of it is, as @chomp my root suggests, that I should find something else to do with what little free time I have. 

That last two paragraphs are scary @barkblue. @chomp my root had the bollocks to call it a day this season, as far as season tickets go at least, I wavered and in the end bought a season ticket and you're now swithering about finding a more enjoyable alternative because of the atmosphere in the ground. That's good, long standing fans of the club on the way to being lost for good.

You're right of course and all the scientific assessment and analysis means nothing if the end game is that Dens is toxic and not a nice place to be for the average fan of the club.

If we can't enjoy being in the ground, even when we're playing decent football and 4-1 up, I really worry for the future of the club. Scary thing is I find that hard to pin on anyone at the club as it's 100% down to 'fans' attending who have nothing better to do with their lives than to boo and berate individuals who are trying, essentially, to do their jobs. Result is that the more rational among us will find something better to do with what you correctly describe as the little free time we actually have.

@Mr Sensible has said that people will end up fighting over this and he's right. What will happen then of course is that the guy that's lost it with the boo boy and given him a good skite in the pus will be banned from the ground and the 'innocent' boo boy will probably survive to boo another day.

 

 

 

Once his broken jaw heals of course.

I think a lot of it is down to communication. For me the club needs to start a concerted programme of positive, public communication with the entire fan base to let us all know the long term goal because as I see it there's only one end game likely to come from how things are right now. They must understand that updates in the programme and the odd sound bite on Twitter simply aren't enough. For me we need to see Nelms inviting the media in and doing positive interviews and honestly answering the questions we want asked.

I'm not saying the toxicity in the stands is necessarily the board's fault but I do think they should be doing what they can to at least try to help fix it.

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PB, excellent post. Think the best idea, and I can't find out who posted it, is to have a supporting song that everyone can get behind. Individuals shouting encouragement, and even worse trying to counteract the moaners with some direct action when the team suffers a set back won't be as effective as collective action.

Seem to remember that the Hey Caballero song used to get everyone going. Don't hear much singing at all, to be fair both the Bobby Cox and the Mainer are not to really into singing.

I have not been in the SE since it was reorganised. From the comments on this forum and Dundee Mad you get the impression that it has been neutered and the previous groups of noisy fans, who did so much to make the place a driving force for the club, have moved on to different interests.

For me, if the club actually tried to improve the facilities for the SE it might help to turn round the apathy. I missed the game so can't comment about the scale of the booing but I would think that everyone involved with running the club must have been shocked at the negative response when the team was leading 4 goals to 1.

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1 hour ago, barkblue said:

Sorry mate, with hindsight I did jump down your throat a bit there.

 

I get where you're coming from PB. In pure Rachel Riley terms 20 or so, or maybe 60 or so across the whole ground is hardly massive percentages. However, it is your second part that's key.

The ground was pretty much four fifths empty, there was basically no singing all afternoon and it was very quiet. So when the main noise we and the players can hear - when we're 4-1 to the good - is booing - and let's not get too specific here so let's add in the odd angry shout and the general disgruntled noises - how significant is that? Well, from what I saw  - Gowser's general unhappiness, Cammy clearly shouting at the crowd and the team - bar one player - not acknowledging the support at the end of the game - never mind the down turn in our fortunes that came after the booing, then the impact feels significant to me. Now, none of that is scientific, so I can't prove a correlation between it all, so it's all a matter of opinion. Although I'd wager that Forster was even less confident after being booed after another f**k up than he would have been had the fans backed him (which admittedly some did the next time he touched the ball after the booing)

What isn't a matter of opinion is how it impacted on me and my enjoyment of attending the game, or my desire to be in beside folk who want to carry on like that on a Saturday afternoon. I didn't react at the time (although I have in the past) but found myself being one of very few applauding a winning team at the game's conclusion. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed.

Dens has been an odd place to spend time in since Hartley's final season and Saturday was possibly the nadir for me. Maybe the crux of it is, as @chomp my root suggests, that I should find something else to do with what little free time I have. 

I’m at firhill this week and look forward to seeing the usual faces in the away crowd getting behind the team and enjoying  themselves - brilliant. Looking for another three points but the day I boo the team is when I chuck it. Happy to be hoarse all Saturday night , another win in the bag. Sure those that make it through will do us all proud

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27 minutes ago, BCram said:

PB, excellent post. Think the best idea, and I can't find out who posted it, is to have a supporting song that everyone can get behind. Individuals shouting encouragement, and even worse trying to counteract the moaners with some direct action when the team suffers a set back won't be as effective as collective action.

 

Think a good supporting song for the doom mongers B Cram would be when they start booing, we stand up and point at them singing, You Dirty Arab b*****ds, You Dirty Arab b*****ds...........so on, so on.

Might shame them into shutting their pusses.

Let'"s give it a go, failing that, then it'll have to be the fight. PB jumps in first !

 

....

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1 hour ago, Prince Buster said:

That last two paragraphs are scary @barkblue. @chomp my root had the bollocks to call it a day this season, as far as season tickets go at least, I wavered and in the end bought a season ticket and you're now swithering about finding a more enjoyable alternative because of the atmosphere in the ground. That's good, long standing fans of the club on the way to being lost for good.

You're right of course and all the scientific assessment and analysis means nothing if the end game is that Dens is toxic and not a nice place to be for the average fan of the club.

If we can't enjoy being in the ground, even when we're playing decent football and 4-1 up, I really worry for the future of the club. Scary thing is I find that hard to pin on anyone at the club as it's 100% down to 'fans' attending who have nothing better to do with their lives than to boo and berate individuals who are trying, essentially, to do their jobs. Result is that the more rational among us will find something better to do with what you correctly describe as the little free time we actually have.

@Mr Sensible has said that people will end up fighting over this and he's right. What will happen then of course is that the guy that's lost it with the boo boy and given him a good skite in the pus will be banned from the ground and the 'innocent' boo boy will probably survive to boo another day.

 

 

 

Once his broken jaw heals of course.

I think a lot of it is down to communication. For me the club needs to start a concerted programme of positive, public communication with the entire fan base to let us all know the long term goal because as I see it there's only one end game likely to come from how things are right now. They must understand that updates in the programme and the odd sound bite on Twitter simply aren't enough. For me we need to see Nelms inviting the media in and doing positive interviews and honestly answering the questions we want asked.

I'm not saying the toxicity in the stands is necessarily the board's fault but I do think they should be doing what they can to at least try to help fix it.

For a few seasons now I've asked, on and off on here, why things are sliding the way they are and no one can really give an answer, myself included. The board set their stall out early with their ambitions, hit them early and then have backed a succession of managers ever since. They got those appointments wrong, but I don't feel they don't care about the football side, as it was under Ron Dixon, for example. I think they do want to engage with fans, but have struggled to really understand what that looks like and maybe their (slightly understandable) view that DFCSS, for example, represented the old guard has simply set that on an unrepairable course.

More regular Q&A's would be a good thing but I know how reticent I'd be if I was Nelms or McPake to sit and listen to some of the stuff that comes up in this setting. I still cringe at Hartley being asked why he played Kevin Holt, or why we employed that tactics we do. In many ways they can't win. Nelms has often stated in the press what the plans are for the stadium and some (most?) simply don't believe it (not saying I do!) so they maybe wonder what the point is? Over and above that, we have such an impotent local media that there are no tough questions ever being asked anyway.

In the ground though I can't blame the board for the atmosphere. It doesn't seem to matter what happens on the park, folk aren't happy. Some lad put up on twitter the other day, asking who Dees would like to see us sign during the window and some lad reeled off a load of Celtic reserves and a few Killie and St Johnstone players like that's realistic. Is it any wonder people are disappointed when that's what they are expecting? 

You're spot on though. I'd say that from our second season back in the top flight I've been questioning exactly what I'm getting from going to Dens and whether it's the best thing I can be doing - and then I ask myself what I'd replace that passion I have for the club with and so far I can't find an answer. Days like Saturday, however, are sucking that passion away very quickly. Negativity and anger from the stands to the extent that I really didn't enjoy being there and end up wondering if there aren't some lads hoping for us to fail so they can unleash there latest torrent of bile and abuse. I want to be in a crowd backing their team and geeing them on - disappointed if we don't do well, sure - but the default setting is abuse, booing and anger. Really, it's not for me.

Anyway. I've banged this drum with basically every one of my posts since the game, so its probably best I give it a rest now. 

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50 minutes ago, ersinovski said:

Let'"s give it a go, failing that, then it'll have to be the fight. PB jumps in first !

 

....

It's actually my concern that the one who loses it and reacts will be seen as the one in the wrong. I've done it before and laid into a Dundee fan for similar, I won't do it again so your turn I'm afraid.

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1 hour ago, DarkBlueKnight said:

I’m at firhill this week and look forward to seeing the usual faces in the away crowd getting behind the team and enjoying  themselves - brilliant. Looking for another three points but the day I boo the team is when I chuck it. Happy to be hoarse all Saturday night , another win in the bag. Sure those that make it through will do us all proud

I do very few away days now mate. Time, money and my brother stopping going have kind of put a stop to it all for me. I've no doubt that the further away, away days still have a more positive, upbeat feel to them but I doubt I'll be joining their number any time soon. Hope you have a good Dee-day on Saturday though! 

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