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Wattie Rojas

Motherwell

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Saw a quote from McPake that seemed to indicate Todd was a mystery to him. Don't know why footballers and their managers are allowed to fall out. Surely someone can knock heads together for the good of the club.

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Motherwell are aggressive, pacey and very direct, what can go wrong?

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Excluding games against Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen and Hibs, Motherwell's record against the rest from September until the end of December was played 9 and won 9. Then came the shock home defeat to Accies followed by a lengthy break.

Hopefully it turns out to be the perfect time to be playing them.

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42 minutes ago, BCram said:

Saw a quote from McPake that seemed to indicate Todd was a mystery to him. Don't know why footballers and their managers are allowed to fall out. Surely someone can knock heads together for the good of the club.

Where did you see the quote mate? I'm intrigued to read more. Cheers!

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McPake says this in today's paper: "Maybe he has been saying that he has not been getting the game time but he needs to ask himself why that’s the case."

What is the manager telling us there? Poor attitude? Ignoring the manager's instruction? Whatever it is, McPake is telling us that he doesn't deserve to be playing.

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the problem with managers is they think the players belong to them ...Hartley did it with harkins..fell out with him McCann did it with bain fell out with him....the quicker managers realise these players are employees of Dundee fc and not theirs the better...if todd is better than whoever else is starting mcpake should be playing him regardless of if their bestest buddies or not..gets on my t*ts that we constantly have managers who cant f**cking manage players properly.

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17 minutes ago, Cobra said:

McPake says this in today's paper: "Maybe he has been saying that he has not been getting the game time but he needs to ask himself why that’s the case."

What is the manager telling us there? Poor attitude? Ignoring the manager's instruction? Whatever it is, McPake is telling us that he doesn't deserve to be playing.

He hasn't had a chance to show whether he can follow instruction so I can only surmise he isn't putting the work in. Saying that in the media is pretty much hanging the lad out to dry, so it looks like he's done with us.

Honestly getting sick of this season after season.

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10 minutes ago, charliedee said:

the problem with managers is they think the players belong to them ...Hartley did it with harkins..fell out with him McCann did it with bain fell out with him....the quicker managers realise these players are employees of Dundee fc and not theirs the better...if todd is better than whoever else is starting mcpake should be playing him regardless of if their bestest buddies or not..gets on my t*ts that we constantly have managers who cant f**cking manage players properly.

I think it's a good point.

66% of our first-team squad (excluding homegrown players) were signed by the manager appointed six months ago. Of the others Todd is apparently a problem and Nelson is stuck on the bench. Hamilton and Meekings are probably only here because we couldn't tear up their contracts.

Hartley wanted his guys, McCann wanted his guys, McIntyre wanted his guys and now McPake demands his guys. In Europe you work with the what you've got but here players get paid off or loaned out the minute the new manager decides your face doesn't fit.

McGowan is probably grateful for what the club have done for him so keeps his mouth shut and does what he's told, and that's why he's the one guy who sticks around.

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With Todd's imminent departure, McPake will be close to making the dressing room his own within a matter of months of taking the job, which is great news for those who want things to be uneventful at Dens with no broken doors and black eyes but it doesn't seem to actually bring us results.

Hamilton (McCann)
Meekings (McCann)
McGhee (McPake)
Marshall (McPake)
Mackie (McPake)
Dorrans (McPake)
McGowan (Hartley)
Todd (McIntyre)
Forster (McPake)
Byrne (McPake)
Ness (McPake)
McDaid (McPake)
Nelson (McIntyre)
Hemmings (McPake)
Johnson (McPake)

I think Jim McLean and Fergie excelled thanks to conflict rather chumminess so maybe it's time we accepted a more combustible dressing room with different characters.

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If there are good players at the club and the team are operating below where they think they should realistically be then, imo, the person who picks the team, the manager, is cutting his own throat if he doesn't play them for no reason other than he didn't sign them. There are others who were signed by JMcP who aren't performing and he treats them exactly the same way. As far as I can see JMcP is picking the side on merit and those playing are the ones who've shown the most, either in training or in games.

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6 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

If there are good players at the club and the team are operating below where they think they should realistically be then, imo, the person who picks the team, the manager, is cutting his own throat if he doesn't play them for no reason other than he didn't sign them. There are others who were signed by JMcP who aren't performing and he treats them exactly the same way. As far as I can see JMcP is picking the side on merit and those playing are the ones who've shown the most, either in training or in games.

You might well be right but it feels as though we have a culture of managers wanting to bin players they didn't sign themselves. Hartley damaged our prospects by not fighting to hang on to Jim Mac, McCann desperately tried to offload Hartley's captain O'Dea on deadline day and left us short at left-back by refusing to extend Holt's deal. Then of course there was McIntyre being bafflingly keen to get rid of Kamara. 

It's possible that McPake is doing things right but I think the board needs to stop giving managers free rein to have clearouts because it's not working for us.

 

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8 hours ago, Cobra said:

With Todd's imminent departure, McPake will be close to making the dressing room his own within a matter of months of taking the job, which is great news for those who want things to be uneventful at Dens with no broken doors and black eyes but it doesn't seem to actually bring us results.

Hamilton (McCann)
Meekings (McCann)
McGhee (McPake)
Marshall (McPake)
Mackie (McPake)
Dorrans (McPake)
McGowan (Hartley)
Todd (McIntyre)
Forster (McPake)
Byrne (McPake)
Ness (McPake)
McDaid (McPake)
Nelson (McIntyre)
Hemmings (McPake)
Johnson (McPake)

I think Jim McLean and Fergie excelled thanks to conflict rather chumminess so maybe it's time we accepted a more combustible dressing room with different characters.

IMO this is a brilliant illustration of why managers should not be the only people involved in recruitment decisions. There's too much money at stake and you need another voice. I think someone like Strachan is helpful and I'm sure he's productive with his role with the youth but the idea of him coming in and fixing that with a few bits of advice isn't true, we need someone who actually has a brilliant understanding of football and the data involved (which is where it's not just a random 'auld heid') to push us along. That revolution started at the top level years ago and it's quickly becoming apparent that the teams who put the most investment in these concepts years ago (Liverpool and Leicester are the two biggest examples) are all flourishing whiles those who haven't are failing (i.e. Man Utd). Closer to home, Livingston have had a model along these lines and I'd be scared to know how much more money we've spent than them in recent times!

I hoped relegation would maybe be the kick in the a**e we needed to move towards a more sustainable model but we've arrived back here signing marquee players and look to be continuing the cycle as it's carried on for years. If the basic aim was for play off spots (which looks to be what it is given McPake doesn't seem close to the exit door), it could have been done more cheaply and with developing the fundamentals (i.e. becoming a side with a robust defence who make the most from set piece opportunities) before we added to it. The most successful sides in Scottish Football from our sort of stature have all made their name being robust defensively - we had Hemmings and Stewart up for POTY and firing in a historically large combination of goals yet finished 9th!

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35 minutes ago, Cobra said:

You might well be right but it feels as though we have a culture of managers wanting to bin players they didn't sign themselves. Hartley damaged our prospects by not fighting to hang on to Jim Mac, McCann desperately tried to offload Hartley's captain O'Dea on deadline day and left us short at left-back by refusing to extend Holt's deal. Then of course there was McIntyre being bafflingly keen to get rid of Kamara. 

It's possible that McPake is doing things right but I think the board needs to stop giving managers free rein to have clearouts because it's not working for us.

 

"You can have Tam Konrad or the 'mystery box'?"

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10 hours ago, barkblue said:

Where did you see the quote mate? I'm intrigued to read more. Cheers!

Think it was part of a DCT interview. might even have been on the News section of this Forum. will try to find it.

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1 hour ago, harry94 said:

IMO this is a brilliant illustration of why managers should not be the only people involved in recruitment decisions. There's too much money at stake and you need another voice. I think someone like Strachan is helpful and I'm sure he's productive with his role with the youth but the idea of him coming in and fixing that with a few bits of advice isn't true, we need someone who actually has a brilliant understanding of football and the data involved (which is where it's not just a random 'auld heid') to push us along. That revolution started at the top level years ago and it's quickly becoming apparent that the teams who put the most investment in these concepts years ago (Liverpool and Leicester are the two biggest examples) are all flourishing whiles those who haven't are failing (i.e. Man Utd). Closer to home, Livingston have had a model along these lines and I'd be scared to know how much more money we've spent than them in recent times!

I hoped relegation would maybe be the kick in the a**e we needed to move towards a more sustainable model but we've arrived back here signing marquee players and look to be continuing the cycle as it's carried on for years. If the basic aim was for play off spots (which looks to be what it is given McPake doesn't seem close to the exit door), it could have been done more cheaply and with developing the fundamentals (i.e. becoming a side with a robust defence who make the most from set piece opportunities) before we added to it. The most successful sides in Scottish Football from our sort of stature have all made their name being robust defensively - we had Hemmings and Stewart up for POTY and firing in a historically large combination of goals yet finished 9th!

harry94, thanks for this post. It takes the discussion onto a different level where the processes are what's important rather than the personalities. I haven't a clue about the recruitment process but I do think I understand a bit about man management and I'm beginning to think that I've been looking through the telescope from the wrong end. Instead of focusing on the selection of the team each week, the much more important part is how the club decides to bring in. I think forums are looked at and the general trends of thought are understood by football boards. They don't need to respond but IMO they do need to be aware of what their supporters are saying.

Can anyone say with any degree of knowledge how our recruitment process is managed by the club? It looked like McCann had some source that he trusted because of the wide range of players that he brought in, none of whom had any experience of Scottish football. What is McPake's process? Are traditional "scouts" still the main source, do personal recommendations and personal contacts still play a big role, is this the sort of system that is old school and doomed to fail?

Like you, I thought that relegation would provide a breathing space where we could sort out our team, bring in young players and actually build a team. As you say we are back with marquee signings and all the problems that creates when other parts of the team need investment but the budget has been spent. 

I'd also like to see some teamwork being shown in the home dugout during games.

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