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Time for McPake To Go?

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Is it time for Mcpake to go?  

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  1. 1. Is it time for Mcpake to go?



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9 minutes ago, Attilio said:

100% BB.  Preaching to the converted there.  I had Nade & Macdonald in mind in my OP.  It hasn't dawned on JMcP yet that supposed pretty football is not going to get us out this division.

This is the bit that I can't fathom. McPake is new to the management game, that I get, but it's not like he hasn't experienced the Scottish game before. 

This perfect football that now seems to be the aim of young coaches coming through is laudable, even if I personally find it thoroughly boring. However, the blind faith of following out the dream no matter the evidence of what is playing out in front of him beggars belief. 

I said it about Hartley, but I do actually want our manager to be stubborn and believe that his way works. However, more than that I want him to be big, bold and brave enough to admit when it isn't working and that there's a need to change it. We're far enough down the line now to pretty much know that what's being attempted isn't working. We're not being unlucky, or running teams close, we are being beaten by poor teams pretty much at a canter. 

When that's happening you have to take a step back and ask the question why. McPake's answer would seem to be that the players are letting him down and to some extent that's probably true. However, the next question has to be... well is he letting the players down? And I'd say, just based on Friday alone (never mind the rest of this sorry season) that he made Dorrans, Gowser, Cameron, McDaid and Hemmings all look like worse players than they are purely by how they were deployed and the role they were asked to fulfil. 

We've now watched four successive managers complicate the game beyond all reason (well maybe not McIntyre, he just failed to understand what the f**k was going on) and, it would seem, confuse a successive group of players to the stage where they basically give up and it's sucking the life out of the support at quit some rate now.

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17 minutes ago, Attilio said:

100% BB.  Preaching to the converted there.  I had Nade & Macdonald in mind in my OP.  It hasn't dawned on JMcP yet that supposed pretty football is not going to get us out this division.

pretty futba and having the so called best players in the division very rarely get you out of this hell hole at the 1st attempt.....unfortunately our neighbours have figured that out after 3 failed attempts....you need some dirty niggly b*****ds in your team...we don't have that...they have butcher who is a f**cking brutal player but kicks sh*t out of anything that moves until booked.....

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while talking about niggly dirty b*****ds....are our players afraid to commit a freekick around the halfway line when teams are looking to open us up....

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12 minutes ago, charliedee said:

while talking about niggly dirty b*****ds....are our players afraid to commit a freekick around the halfway line when teams are looking to open us up....

To be fair Callachan seems quite adept at kicking lads up in the air, which I personally have no problem with.

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1 minute ago, barkblue said:

To be fair Callachan seems quite adept at kicking lads up in the air, which I personally have no problem with.

aye he has an angry man look about him.....unfortunately he has an angry don't know when to stop being an angry man look about him...I was sure he was getting sent aff last night.

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2 hours ago, rossbatchelor9 said:

I enjoy the structure of this post, like stairs leading down the way...

Fermers averaging 3,342 in home league games this season compared to our average of 5,476, and their average is down about 500 from last season. Dundee can easily average 6,500-7,000 when things are good, i.e. in 2014-15 we averaged 6,966 all season. Including our home derby game, our average attendance this season (5,746) is quite a bit bigger than our title winning season in 2013-14 (4,738). Without it, we are still slightly better (4,836). It's not like the fans have been turning away from league games, but when things are as consistently bad as they are now then why should people continue to show up? When STs aren't a factor and the team is as predictably sh**e as ever, you get situations like the one at Motherwell where barely over 1,000 even care to show up. Even under the circumstances, that is a ridiculously low number of Dee home fans. If it doesn't send a message, then what will?

If TW keeps digging wins out of his a**e like today, I doubt he'll be going. But you'd think with a competent manager such as him being in charge, the attendance would become consistent again, much like the team. As for now though, we're again stuck in limbo.

Thanks Ross' for answering & taking the time to answer my question so comprehensively ... There is a lot in there to mull over.

I would like to see things turnaround for JMP. But not at the expense of attendances continuing to fall & us finding ourselves, struggling & fighting to avoid relegation in this Division. I also feel on a more personal level, although he may yet turn things around ... He's suffering a lot.

Also Freend ... Thanks for your Opening Comment:chaplin:

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1 minute ago, charliedee said:

aye he has an angry man look about him.....unfortunately he has an angry don't know when to stop being an angry man look about him...I was sure he was getting sent aff last night.

There's a knack to that though obviously.  The dab Butcher can often foul continually for 89 minutes and get away with it before being booked when it makes no difference whatsoever,  I thought the same as you about Callachan at the time but he reigned himself in. I suppose they call it being 'professional'.  'Good' players and teams seem to know how top play the referees.  If they get away with stuff in the first 10 minutes say, they know they are going to get away with it for the rest of the game.  Have to say that KT was a master at that.

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2 hours ago, DeeVDee said:

Depends what you want I suppose, I want a manager that can take a group of players and make them better by better organisation or better players. Jocky did that three times first time by adding Coyne and Wright to a good team to make it better. 2nd time got us promoted to our highest league position in recent years with a very limited squad. 3rd time saved us from relegation. I always felt relatively safe with Jocky as a manager. Not something I can say about any other manager recently. 

At the moment we are crying out  for a manager that can organise us and make us difficult to beat. Hence the cry for Hughes, McCall (either) or Wright on here. If we get one  and get promoted the next season there will be calls for him to be sacked for not playing sexy football. We are where are, we are not a top side we have to learn to walk before we can run.

Nelms is probably going to stick with McPake to learn on the job, if he was going to do that perhaps he should of done that with McCann, it certainly didn't work in the short term but I could see what he was trying to achieve, I don't get that with McP

He was manager in the Melville era with plenty of money placed at his disposal and he proceeded to sign dumplings apart from Harkins and Griffith's. He then plays Griffith's out of position out on the wing for most games. We were 15 points in front at New Year and he manages to squander that lead and was given the heave in April. No I don't want him back. I agree with you on McCann, and I believe if he had not been sacked we would still be in the Premiership. He knew what was needed to keep us up. He proved that the two seasons before. There was a structure there and you could see where he was wanting to get to. I cannot see a structure at the moment, but a lot was invested in restructuring our management team, and I am afraid that MacPake will be given to the end of the season. It would probably cost us to get rid of him. You never know by the end of the season there might be an improvement. Let us hope so for at the moment things are grim.

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3 minutes ago, Attilio said:

There's a knack to that though obviously.  The dab Butcher can often foul continually for 89 minutes and get away with it before being booked when it makes no difference whatsoever,  I thought the same as you about Callachan at the time but he reigned himself in. I suppose they call it being 'professional'.  'Good' players and teams seem to know how top play the referees.  If they get away with stuff in the first 10 minutes say, they know they are going to get away with it for the rest of the game.  Have to say that KT was a master at that.

aye when butcher got booked after about a min in the 0-2 game he did f**k all the rest of the match ...but in the 1-1 game he just committed foul upon foul and think he got booked for dissent in the 89th min

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Voted to keep him. Really want to see some attempt to build on what we have and stop this merry go round of new manager, new squad every time the manager changes. However my desire for this type of consistency is being severely tried by McPake, Nicholl and McKay's insistence on a style of play that has been comprehensively destroyed by most of our opponents.

What is so hard to understand? There has got to be a change in tactics, players have got to win their individual battles. Dunfermline put a forward on Dorrans and our play maker was effectively taken out of the game. How simple is that?

I hope that McPake Nicholl and McKay and the players have had a full debrief using both the TV games. Questions asked about why goals were lost, why so few chances are created, why we persist with the tippy tappy approach that is getting us nowhere. It leads to a long ball, hit under pressure towards a Dee, with luck, who is covered by at least one opponent. We'd get on better getting Hamilton to lamp the ball upfield as soon as he can and just chase it, at least Hemmings  would be facing the right way!

Edited by BCram
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Agree Rocky Boy, with your assessment of my post. It's really sad state that we are in. I know keeping McPake is a minority viewpoint. Still hoping he can see what he needs to do.

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4 hours ago, Dondeh said:

The decision maker and guy responsible for hiring Managers could have said something like ...'time's not right yet son'. 

I still fail to see how that means Nelms has ruined McPake's managerial career. 

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12 minutes ago, WeighorstsWang said:

I still fail to see how that means Nelms has ruined McPake's managerial career. 

You have to be a manager in the first place to have someone ruin it for you. J McP is not a football manager atm , and more than likely never will be. 

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4 hours ago, Alexis said:

He was a fantastic manager for us. That's all that matters. 

Rab Douglas was as much an influence in that team as Barry was. He was the one who took team talks, motivated players etc. 

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3 hours ago, Iain T Campbell said:

He was manager in the Melville era with plenty of money placed at his disposal and he proceeded to sign dumplings apart from Harkins and Griffith's. He then plays Griffith's out of position out on the wing for most games. We were 15 points in front at New Year and he manages to squander that lead and was given the heave in April. No I don't want him back. I agree with you on McCann, and I believe if he had not been sacked we would still be in the Premiership. He knew what was needed to keep us up. He proved that the two seasons before. There was a structure there and you could see where he was wanting to get to. I cannot see a structure at the moment, but a lot was invested in restructuring our management team, and I am afraid that MacPake will be given to the end of the season. It would probably cost us to get rid of him. You never know by the end of the season there might be an improvement. Let us hope so for at the moment things are grim.

No he didn’t, Jesus!

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We're five points from the relegation play-off. I don't think McPake could possibly be doing worse with these players.

The worrying thing is we appear to be getting worse. Dunfermline won at a canter on Friday (after five straight defeats themselves). We're going into February out the cup and looking for our first goal of 2020 (never mind point).

Another defeat at Cappielow and another home defeat to Partick will leave us staring at a second successive relegation. Is Nelms really going to let this shambles roll on for another week?

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4 hours ago, barkblue said:

This is the bit that I can't fathom. McPake is new to the management game, that I get, but it's not like he hasn't experienced the Scottish game before. 

This perfect football that now seems to be the aim of young coaches coming through is laudable, even if I personally find it thoroughly boring. However, the blind faith of following out the dream no matter the evidence of what is playing out in front of him beggars belief. 

I said it about Hartley, but I do actually want our manager to be stubborn and believe that his way works. However, more than that I want him to be big, bold and brave enough to admit when it isn't working and that there's a need to change it. We're far enough down the line now to pretty much know that what's being attempted isn't working. We're not being unlucky, or running teams close, we are being beaten by poor teams pretty much at a canter. 

When that's happening you have to take a step back and ask the question why. McPake's answer would seem to be that the players are letting him down and to some extent that's probably true. However, the next question has to be... well is he letting the players down? And I'd say, just based on Friday alone (never mind the rest of this sorry season) that he made Dorrans, Gowser, Cameron, McDaid and Hemmings all look like worse players than they are purely by how they were deployed and the role they were asked to fulfil. 

We've now watched four successive managers complicate the game beyond all reason (well maybe not McIntyre, he just failed to understand what the f**k was going on) and, it would seem, confuse a successive group of players to the stage where they basically give up and it's sucking the life out of the support at quit some rate now.

Jim failed to understand the magnitude of the challenge and readily admits when he was belatedly told he could not bring in Dodds he should have immediately walked but hindsight’s a wonderful thing. It suits “us” to hang him out to dry but imo he was given the hardest gig- NMs crap squad, a winter window and the SPFL.

Compare that to what JMPs challenge is- night and day....

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4 hours ago, Iain T Campbell said:

He was manager in the Melville era with plenty of money placed at his disposal and he proceeded to sign dumplings apart from Harkins and Griffith's. He then plays Griffith's out of position out on the wing for most games. We were 15 points in front at New Year and he manages to squander that lead and was given the heave in April. No I don't want him back. I agree with you on McCann, and I believe if he had not been sacked we would still be in the Premiership. He knew what was needed to keep us up. He proved that the two seasons before. There was a structure there and you could see where he was wanting to get to. I cannot see a structure at the moment, but a lot was invested in restructuring our management team, and I am afraid that MacPake will be given to the end of the season. It would probably cost us to get rid of him. You never know by the end of the season there might be an improvement. Let us hope so for at the moment things are grim.

I did say in my original post the third time didn't end well, but initially he did well with some of the worst players I have ever seen at Dens (I sometimes have nightmares about Chris Pozniak and co). I was sure that Rae would have seen us relegated that year.  I also do not want Jocky back (as I said in another post) but I think he has a track record as a decent manager at Dens and elsewhere. Can't think of any better we have had in my time of watching Dundee regularly and can't understand some of the criticism he gets on here and other forums 

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17 hours ago, Cobra said:

We're five points from the relegation play-off. I don't think McPake could possibly be doing worse with these players.

The worrying thing is we appear to be getting worse. Dunfermline won at a canter on Friday (after five straight defeats themselves). We're going into February out the cup and looking for our first goal of 2020 (never mind point).

Another defeat at Cappielow and another home defeat to Partick will leave us staring at a second successive relegation. Is Nelms really going to let this shambles roll on for another week?

Yes I think he would,  even if the results you have guessed might happen did happen. I understand the fear of a second relegation but don't believe that McPake and Nicholl will carry on with the tippy tappy style. They have got Callachan and Cranks to strengthen and that's 2 out of the 3 positions that we have been moaning about for ages. Expect a return to 442, pick out team and stick with it. 

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On 26/01/2020 at 08:23, Valentke said:

Jim failed to understand the magnitude of the challenge and readily admits when he was belatedly told he could not bring in Dodds he should have immediately walked but hindsight’s a wonderful thing. It suits “us” to hang him out to dry but imo he was given the hardest gig- NMs crap squad, a winter window and the SPFL.

Compare that to what JMPs challenge is- night and day....

With all due respect Valentke, I couldn't care less which of the 3 is the worst - none of them did/are doing a satisfactory job.  

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