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Dfc's Recruitment Structure

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Interested to hear people's thoughts on this. It's clear to me that Nelms has completely failed on the recruitment side of DFC, consistently finishing behind so many clubs with much smaller budgets than ours. Keyes isn't going to sack him, but for me the responsibilities should be handed over to a director of football (or similar) - he isn't up to that part of the job, and trusting a manager with all of your recruitment is not a sensible option either, as we have discovered...

 

https://medium.com/@1962/it-is-time-for-a-recruitment-overhaul-at-dundee-fc-1225450a8db9

 

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No idea where that came from. It would appear that I must have offended you. No idea why or how but it would appear I have. Anyway, no point taking this any further because I don't intend to offe

That’s a good article.    The general consensus is that player recruitment has been extremely poor with a scattering of Gems occasionally. I’m not sure you can blame John Nelms for player recru

Looking back at our first two seasons back in the Premier league I actually think PH was building a decent squad of players. At that stage If we could have just started adding 3/4 a season I think we

That’s a good article. 
 

The general consensus is that player recruitment has been extremely poor with a scattering of Gems occasionally. I’m not sure you can blame John Nelms for player recruitment though.His job is to recruit the manager, this is where he has been led down a garden path on countless occasions to the detriment of the club. Each manager has been backed handsomely by FPS group and all seem to get the players that they want most of which are journeyman and offer the club very little. It’s worth noting that some of these players are given 2 and 3 year deals and that’s a massive weight around the club when they prove to be utter Gash. 
 

Nelms biggest flaw is his communication with the fans, it seems he treats most with contempt at best.
 

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30 minutes ago, BigG said:

That’s a good article. 
 

The general consensus is that player recruitment has been extremely poor with a scattering of Gems occasionally. I’m not sure you can blame John Nelms for player recruitment though.His job is to recruit the manager, this is where he has been led down a garden path on countless occasions to the detriment of the club. Each manager has been backed handsomely by FPS group and all seem to get the players that they want most of which are journeyman and offer the club very little. It’s worth noting that some of these players are given 2 and 3 year deals and that’s a massive weight around the club when they prove to be utter Gash. 
 

Nelms biggest flaw is his communication with the fans, it seems he treats most with contempt at best.
 

“Nelms biggest flaw is his communication with the fans, it seems he treats most with contempt at best” 

spot on, completely agree 
 

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Looking back at our first two seasons back in the Premier league I actually think PH was building a decent squad of players. At that stage If we could have just started adding 3/4 a season I think we would in a far better place than we find ourselves now. Although the loss of Hemmings and Stewart was a massive blow and the whole situation with Thomson and Harkins didn't help either and the wheels well and truly came off. 

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51 minutes ago, BigG said:

That’s a good article. 
 

The general consensus is that player recruitment has been extremely poor with a scattering of Gems occasionally. I’m not sure you can blame John Nelms for player recruitment though.His job is to recruit the manager, this is where he has been led down a garden path on countless occasions to the detriment of the club. Each manager has been backed handsomely by FPS group and all seem to get the players that they want most of which are journeyman and offer the club very little. It’s worth noting that some of these players are given 2 and 3 year deals and that’s a massive weight around the club when they prove to be utter Gash. 
 

Nelms biggest flaw is his communication with the fans, it seems he treats most with contempt at best.
 

I think you can blame Nelms for not setting up any form of player recruitment structure, beyond: 'this is our budget James, see who you can get'. He may not be directly involved in player recruitment - the criticism is more that by handing over all responsibilities to the manager, you are setting yourself up for failure. That was the norm in football for a long time but none of the best run clubs anywhere in the world operate like that anymore. IMO the manager should definitely have an input/recommend signings but the decisions should be made by someone with expertise and the long term interests of the club at heart. Should lead to better results on and off the pitch. 

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1 minute ago, Dundeefc1783 said:

Looking back at our first two seasons back in the Premier league I actually think PH was building a decent squad of players. At that stage If we could have just started adding 3/4 a season I think we would in a far better place than we find ourselves now. Although the loss of Hemmings and Stewart was a massive blow and the whole situation with Thomson and Harkins didn't help either and the wheels well and truly came off. 

True - some managers will get it right, but others inevitably won't. The club should safeguard itself from that by creating a more sustainable strategy that will outlast any one manager.

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Reference to the Moneyball film was interesting. They tied the longest winning streak of , I think 20 games and in the final game to break the record they were way behind in the first part of the game and got in a position to win with their last man.  Coach followed the system and didn't play the form hitter. Fail to get the winning run, or whatever it's called,  and they lost. Old style commentators said they knew it was a bubble waiting to burst. Fact that the system got them to the highest winning run for decades was completely missed by them.

Think the metrics of football can help but theory, as we saw with McCann, is only part of the equation for success. John Nelms has tried to run the club by letting the managers he has chosen get on with the job. This time we've got McPake and Nicoll and it seemed that we were progressing. I think we should back this combo, and see what next season brings. Director of football might just undo everything, just my opinion.

 

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8 hours ago, BCram said:

Reference to the Moneyball film was interesting. They tied the longest winning streak of , I think 20 games and in the final game to break the record they were way behind in the first part of the game and got in a position to win with their last man.  Coach followed the system and didn't play the form hitter. Fail to get the winning run, or whatever it's called,  and they lost. Old style commentators said they knew it was a bubble waiting to burst. Fact that the system got them to the highest winning run for decades was completely missed by them.

Think the metrics of football can help but theory, as we saw with McCann, is only part of the equation for success. John Nelms has tried to run the club by letting the managers he has chosen get on with the job. This time we've got McPake and Nicoll and it seemed that we were progressing. I think we should back this combo, and see what next season brings. Director of football might just undo everything, just my opinion.

 

DoF not really necessary. All it needs is the people at the top to have a proper vision, know what they're doing in applying the vision, to believe in that vision and to apply it at all levels across the club. Abdicating all responsibility to an individual manager is not the way to do it. We've seen with McCann that when you install an incompetent manager in that position of absolute power all you end up with is a fall guy taking the hit whilst the root cause of the problem goes on.

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Brilliant article. Well done to the author. I am in favour of trying a different approach, the currently system encourages managers to roll the dice in order to save their tenure whereas a DOF would be concerned with balancing short term success with a long term policy.

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2 hours ago, Prince Buster said:

DoF not really necessary. All it needs is the people at the top to have a proper vision, know what they're doing in applying the vision, to believe in that vision and to apply it at all levels across the club. Abdicating all responsibility to an individual manager is not the way to do it. We've seen with McCann that when you install an incompetent manager in that position of absolute power all you end up with is a fall guy taking the hit whilst the root cause of the problem goes on.

See it that way too, PB. Hoping that McPake and Nicholl and McKay actually work together to bring about some stability. Should have included Gordon Strachan.

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Excellent article and something we definitely need to look at, especially with Gordon Strachan involved. I think this should not only concern identifying players but also identifying managers that fit into a recognised strategy. 

John Nelms has proved he has no idea of what is needed. His complete reliance on his incumbent manager to reinvent the club has been a disaster. Managers should be coming into a recognised structure given our budget, not having to continually rip it up and start again. You don't need the best players, you just need players that know what's required and not 15-20 new signings every season trying to gel as some kind of passing team in 3 weeks pre-season. 

A good example of a club punching miles above it's weight is Livingston. Dreadful club and support but they identified you don't need to be Man City, you just need to be hard to beat. They signed players based on qualified stats initially and then made the strategic decision to put in the worst artificial pitch in history, filled to the brim with rubber to suit the type of players they signed. This gives them a big advantage. Lawless is a good example, going nowhere in his career, but now a hugely important player for them. Very much a Moneyball signing. It means their managerial appointments are much less important because they have a limited responsibility. Hopkin and Holt have been pretty much non-entities everywhere else they've been. 

Nelms badly needs to put some kind of proper strategy in place very quickly. 

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I think Nelms has tweaked his strategy several times in his efforts to find success on the field. He got McCann  in to save us when Hartley admitted he didn't know what more he could do. He backed McCanns vision of getting lower division players who were unrecognised; he brought in an experienced manager who had a track record of success, and he replaced him with a trusted Dee in McPake who had both Nicholl and Strachan as mentors.

It looks to me as though the latest strategy was beginning to bear fruit and it will be given support for next season. McPakes court case may throw a spanner in the works, but hopefully it will turn out fine and we have a stable start to next season, whenever it starts!

 

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5 hours ago, Fredeye said:

Brilliant article. Well done to the author. I am in favour of trying a different approach, the currently system encourages managers to roll the dice in order to save their tenure whereas a DOF would be concerned with balancing short term success with a long term policy.

You mean like Craig Levein at Hearts?

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If we had got a Gordon Strachan figure in during the first two years of Hartley then we could have been looking at a very different picture, but we didn’t and unfortunately the rest as they say is history. What I’m hoping though is that we have learned our lesson and with good football people now involved (Strachan, Nichols,Wright) we can move forward with a bit more optimism and the last 6 weeks of the season I think showed signs that that optimism and work was paying some dividend. 

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