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Spiritof62

Derby Record

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Being bluntly honest here our Derby record is truly shocking, I can even remember poor United teams beating very good Dundee teams simply because they were fired up for it.

It's a different level, but I loved how Newcastle ripped into W Ham on Sunday, every Newcastle player burst a gut to get the result they needed, compare that approach to how our guys performed on Sunday.

For discussion purposes, can Hartley survive another dismal set of results against the Dracula Dabs next season?

I personally doubt it very much, but that's just me.

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Good Season. But I've got to be honest here and say, I wis really scunnered and angry, wi' the result on Sunday.

I never forecast results when it come to games that Oor Club are involved in. But on Sunday I felt confident we would do it.

The last game o' the season. The Arabs going through(happily) bad times. Us soarting them oot (at last) at Dens I felt this wid be oor day.

Noo a couple o' days has passed. Am I feeling better ? To be honest. No really. The last gme o' the season we should have gave them, plenty tae think aboot.

We should have been primed and ready. "Fired up and bursting a gut" is aboot right. But realistically Spirit (imo) PH is getting there. And yes, I think he would survive that.

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Being bluntly honest here our Derby record is truly shocking, I can even remember poor United teams beating very good Dundee teams simply because they were fired up for it.

It's a different level, but I loved how Newcastle ripped into W Ham on Sunday, every Newcastle player burst a gut to get the result they needed, compare that approach to how our guys performed on Sunday.

For discussion purposes, can Hartley survive another dismal set of results against the Dracula Dabs next season?

I personally doubt it very much, but that's just me.

Yes, if we show progress. You are right when you point out that poor United teams have beaten "better" Dundee teams because of their greater motivation to win. It's nothing new but IMO, it is much more important now to beat United. We need to win these derbies regularly and start to show that we can rise above United. We've had various failed ownership attempts at doing this in the past. They failed because we didn't have the simple understanding that winning is what football matches are about. Our players thought they they were doing well because they were well paid, ruinously well paid. Their job is to win games, simples, and the games against united are the most important ones to win.

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I think next season is a big one for Hartley in terms of derbies. Think the one on Sunday can almost be forgiven in that they were playing for possible Europe slot and were desperate for a win given the turmoil they were in. We were down to bare bones with a few of players playing are already leaving and a few more that will more than likely either move on or be at best bit part players next season. We had very little in reserve having released a number of players and we are still building a squad of Hartley's own players and one that is more spl standard than championship level.

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I canna be the only one at the end of the season to not give a f**k about Derby results? In the weeks build up and week after I love/hate it, but I definitely don't judge a season on Derby results, or against any single team, else it defies the point of a league.

Is happily take 4 pumpings from hem to finish above them.

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Honestly nobody wants to beat the Arabs more than I do but we have to be realistic--PH has only been here 15mths--He started off light years behind Utd as a Championship manager-there was a massive gap between not only the starting elevens of the two sides but also we were miles behind as a club as well-Utd have rightly been praised for their ability to bring young players through their system-but that doesn't happen overnight-it takes time -years even. This season has seen the gap closing-we are starting to show signs that we are a proper football club both on and off the park. Young players are beginning to emerge like Wighton, Colquhoun, Allan and Black which is testimony  to the hard work going on behind the scenes and although we suffered a few defeats to United we did manage to beat them recently. We will be stronger next season-the team will be younger and hungrier and the energy levels will be higher. Despite our dismal end to the season we would have all taken a top six position. Time now for the club to move up a level which will see us compete more regularly with Utd, Aberdeen and Caley and St Johnstone-Yes it will be difficult especially with Hearts and possibly Rangers in the league but I honestly think that we are on the right track. We just HAVE to be patient. Personally? I think that we could win a trophy next year. Time will tell but in the mean time MON THE DEE!

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I think a big part of us getting hammered in Derbys is the lack of attacking threat we have in our team.

It seems like united are happy to let us have a decent amount of the ball knowing that we don't have a great attacking threat in the final third to punish them. They also appear happy to attack us in numbers knowing full well we have virtually no pace to hurt them on the break.

The second half of the first derby was a perfect example of this they simply sat 10 men in behind the ball and let us knock it about until the move broke down then picked us off on the counter attack.

The only time we have punished them with a quick attacking move was Heffs goal and even in that game when we were 2-1 up I was wondering where another goal would come from.

With signings of Loy, Hemmings and hopefully a pacey winger I think we will give them much more to think about and that might effect how they play against us as we are much more likely to hurt them on the break. With boys like that in team we should be able to get the ball from front to back and hurt them and other sides on the break much more than we have this year.

For the better sides in the league we just seem to be so easy to play against.

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I canna be the only one at the end of the season to not give a f**k about Derby results? In the weeks build up and week after I love/hate it, but I definitely don't judge a season on Derby results, or against any single team, else it defies the point of a league.

Is happily take 4 pumpings from hem to finish above them.

Agree with this. Games against United (or any one team) do not define your season. It's defined over the full 38 games. Obviously everyone wants to win these games but Hartley shouldn't be judged on his results solely against United.

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Jim McLean's mantra was that "we can lose to some teams but dinnae dare lose to Dundee" - it often looks like that is now ingrained at the Dump.

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I can fully understand you resident elite--the hard facts are that you are right- we don't have the pace to hit on the break like you say-earlier at the start of the season with Roberts and Boyle as wide players we gave teams problems but when those two players went off the boil (pardon the pun) we resorted to a shape that PH thought suited the players he had at his disposal. Unfortunately losing our most creative player in Harkins for a spell didn't help us and Kevin Thomson being injured was another problem that we didn't cope with all that well. The system puts an awful lot of onus on the two full backs to provide the width. Unfortunately teams got wise to that and we got caught in front of the ball a lot down both flanks and definitely were exposed to a counter attack which Utd demonstrated well the other day. It all boils down to the players the manager had available-like you though I would like to see a pacey wide player that can offer us something different but PH will know where his weaknesses lie and I'm pretty sure he'll sort it out.

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Being bluntly honest here our Derby record is truly shocking, I can even remember poor United teams beating very good Dundee teams simply because they were fired up for it.

It's a different level, but I loved how Newcastle ripped into W Ham on Sunday, every Newcastle player burst a gut to get the result they needed, compare that approach to how our guys performed on Sunday.

For discussion purposes, can Hartley survive another dismal set of results against the Dracula Dabs next season?

I personally doubt it very much, but that's just me.

Yes he would survive without a doubt.

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I canna be the only one at the end of the season to not give a f**k about Derby results? In the weeks build up and week after I love/hate it, but I definitely don't judge a season on Derby results, or against any single team, else it defies the point of a league.

Is happily take 4 pumpings from hem to finish above them.

That's unlikely to happen though. If we want to finish regularly above them then we need to be taking 5 points minimum from them to stand a chance.

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