Stadium Latest.

[Prince Buster]

1 hour ago, Big Fez said:

And saying it could never happen is awfy confident when almost exactly this happened to Hamilton Accies just a few weeks ago.

You're confidently stating it WILL happen, is that OK but meanwhile nobody's allowed to offer an alternative scenario?

[wearedarkblue87]

2 hours ago, Big Fez said:

I don't want it to happen because i believe we'll get screwed over if it does.

You're welcome to disagree but there's no need to question my motivations.

You don't want the stadium to happen and that's your right but if it doesn't happen are you not worried about the upkeep of the main stand and the derry? Who is going to keep paying for that as I don't see the current owners staying if the new stadium gets kicked out (I hope they do but I just don't see it) 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

3 hours ago, Big Fez said:

It's not about 'most' versus 'nobody'. But it's just 'a lot less'. If you've got a stadium that's 360 degrees surrounded by city then you've got double the number, for any given distance, than you do if you've got a stadium that's only surrounded 180 degrees. And again, a dual carriageway right next to it makes walking less convenient again.

To illustrate my general point, you can use this tool: https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/

population within 3km of dens: 89k

population within 3km of campy: 61k

Sadly it doesn't go to a smaller radius than that, and maybe absolute numbers not accurate overall as tool is really designed for larger regions but you get my point.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that mate, the outward radius of Dens has more people but not necessarily more people heading to watch games of football at that location. You could also argue that half of the crowd are heading from the west and will only head a mile or so at most up the Kingsway to park at the new place. There are also many buse routes plus plans for more. There are also many Dundee fans who travel from out with the city. 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

3 hours ago, Big Fez said:

It's just not that easy to hire loads more drivers and vehicles to work half a shift every two weeks, often with short notice of rescheduling/postponement/changes of kick-off time

If this is really 'basic business sense' then why aren't there any other examples of this happening in scotland? (I am aware of a couple down south, it's not impossible, but lots more money in general round those parts of course).

The buses in my area run more regularly during peak times than off peak times, that'll be the same around the new stadium if the demand is there. Why would they turn away custom and deny people a service if there was demand for it?. Nobody, apart from yourself, thinks that the bus companies will be required to run loads more buses to accommodate thousands of supporters, the stadium's on the western edges of Dundee not the North Pole, people will get there using the same means they do do get to Dens or adapt to suit changing circumstances. I've followed Dundee going into 5 decades and I've used various different methods of transport because my circumstances have changed and restrictions around the ground have changed. I'm now parked further away than I've ever been but I still get there because I've adapted to suit changing circumstances. 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

3 hours ago, troodee1893 said:

With the parking solely for residents in the area of the two current grounds being extended the distances some will have to walk on matches after parking their cars will expand. On big games folk are parking from as far away as Stobswell/Swanney ponds to the East to Clepington road west, Strathmore avenue far it in the West and all the way down to the Kingsway in between these areas. Also anywhere North of Alexander street up to the areas at the top of Kinghorne road and Hill street. There is more than enough parking similar distances from the proposed new stadium to cover the same need.

Currently parking just off the Kingsway at the bottom of Graham Street. On big games we've got to be there early to get a space. I'm thinking that, after some early teething problems, the new place will be a doddle for parking. 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

3 hours ago, Big Fez said:

We're going back to not owning our own ground.

We already don't own our ground Fez and haven't done for a number of years. We've paid a rent and/or an annual upkeep cost. The new place won't have particularly high upkeep costs, in comparison to Dens, and we'll continue to, or go back to, paying a rent/mortgage but over a much longer term. Maybe the owners will set a high rate and we won't be in a position to keep up the payments but I don't see who benefits from that. Where I do have concerns though is over the plans to build the rest of the development before the stadium. They wouldn't be the first developer's to run out of cash once the bits that are gonna make them money are built.

[Big Fez]

1 hour ago, wearedarkblue87 said:

You don't want the stadium to happen and that's your right but if it doesn't happen are you not worried about the upkeep of the main stand and the derry? Who is going to keep paying for that as I don't see the current owners staying if the new stadium gets kicked out (I hope they do but I just don't see it) 

Yeah we're at a point now where I don't see a good outcome. I mean, it's obviously *possible* that the board agree to sell the new stadium to the club for a reasonable amount, or give us a fifty year lease on decent terms. That would be the best case scenario. But Nelms has been dodging that kind of question for a decade, and so if they were gonna do it, why wouldn't they have announced it before now? Or given any assurances at all?

Having to refurb dens after years of not-so-managed decline would be massive burden on the club. But it's better than ending up in forfar, the lowland league, or admin three, all of which I think are feasible outcomes if this doesn't go well. Pessimist I know. But twice bitten and all that.

[Big Fez]

33 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

The buses in my area run more regularly during peak times than off peak times, that'll be the same around the new stadium if the demand is there. Why would they turn away custom and deny people a service if there was demand for it?. Nobody, apart from yourself, thinks that the bus companies will be required to run loads more buses to accommodate thousands of supporters, the stadium's on the western edges of Dundee not the North Pole, people will get there using the same means they do do get to Dens or adapt to suit changing circumstances. I've followed Dundee going into 5 decades and I've used various different methods of transport because my circumstances have changed and restrictions around the ground have changed. I'm now parked further away than I've ever been but I still get there because I've adapted to suit changing circumstances. 

Yeah, discussion has meandered a bit but to be clear, my point about location wasn't that it was impossible, or that we wouldn't be able to attract crowds. My point was just that the way that a lot of people adapt when you move something less central and put in a load of free parking is 'take the car'. And that's why it's difficult to get local authorities/transport agencies etc etc to agree to this kind of thing. It's not the 1990s any more and they have loads of statutory obligations about reducing car use and so on. And if the world keeps going the way it is going the new location might not look so smart in a couple of decades. 

I have moved on to more general skepticism about the project in general, but that's not what the above location chat was about!

[Big Fez]

1 hour ago, Prince Buster said:

You're confidently stating it WILL happen, is that OK but meanwhile nobody's allowed to offer an alternative scenario?

Everybody's allowed to offer an alternative scenario. I encourage it.

I'm allowed to give an example which I think shows why my scenario is not as far-fetched as other people think it is.

That's all that was going on here, I think?

[Big Fez]

2 hours ago, Garageflower said:

personal insults? What personal insults?

Sorry if I misread your tone. I thought that adding 'why are you scared of progress?' when I'd already explained loads of reasoning was you being a wide-o on purpose. But if you didn't mean it that way, sorry for being a bit touchy.

[Big Fez]

17 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

We already don't own our ground Fez and haven't done for a number of years. We've paid a rent and/or an annual upkeep cost. The new place won't have particularly high upkeep costs, in comparison to Dens, and we'll continue to, or go back to, paying a rent/mortgage but over a much longer term. Maybe the owners will set a high rate and we won't be in a position to keep up the payments but I don't see who benefits from that. Where I do have concerns though is over the plans to build the rest of the development before the stadium. They wouldn't be the first developer's to run out of cash once the bits that are gonna make them money are built.

There's just soooo much on the whole setup that is basically 100% dependent on JN going 'trust us'. And again, there were legal obstacles that could have stopped them shafting us and they've whittled them away one at a time. Shareholdings. Buying Dens. So it's now completely open to them to shaft us and there is nothing we could do. They don't need us at all. The club has zero financial value to them except as a way to get this project done. The more expensive the project gets the less profit they can make, the more chance they have to squeeze the club with onerous terms in order to get a good price for the development.

[Reverend Lovejoy]

3 minutes ago, Big Fez said:

Yeah, discussion has meandered a bit but to be clear, my point about location wasn't that it was impossible, or that we wouldn't be able to attract crowds. My point was just that the way that a lot of people adapt when you move something less central and put in a load of free parking is 'take the car'. And that's why it's difficult to get local authorities/transport agencies etc etc to agree to this kind of thing. It's not the 1990s any more and they have loads of statutory obligations about reducing car use and so on. And if the world keeps going the way it is going the new location might not look so smart in a couple of decades. 

I have moved on to more general skepticism about the project in general, but that's not what the above location chat was about!

The new place isn't offering 'a load of free parking' though Fez, there are only 100 spaces included in the plans which will be used predominantly by players and officials. There will be coach parking for away fans on the old Liff Road and non-residential parking on a first come, first served basis in the industrial estates. Public transport from the City Centre serves the areas surrounding Campy, North, South, East and West. Those that frequent pubs in the town can easily get a bus from the various options available and likewise the Hilltown area. It's a short walk from the terminus in Dryburgh and there are stops in Ardler which are probably closer. With housing included in the plans there will be a bus service directly into the site too at some point.