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Dfc ....... Eh Cannnae Be The Only One That Thinks........


Gedee

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...... it is time to bring back mair characters intae fitba. And a bit mair freedom into the gemme.

Ok, I know the season hasnae even started yet, so its maybe is a bit ridulous to be over critical.

But I think we are getting too bogged down wi, systems and methods.  Result is bland football.

Good skilled, creative football players (imo) are no getting oppoprtunities to express themselves.

Feel in my time there were characters on the pitch. Didnae aye work. But there wis expectancy

Now it seems players are told/expected, to play rigidly, to pre-set laid down plans and systems.

It disnae work for me. And I am no sae sure it works either for most players. Too clinical I think.

Best example are wingers. They brought, as well as skill, some individuality speed into a game.

I respect PH, and I do believe he has professionally thought through how he wants DFC to play.

But maybe it is the time to change course (no managers) .Bring back some creative wide men.

Finally (as I seem to be mair depressed as this post goes on) How aboot some shots at goal ?

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...... it is time to bring back mair characters intae fitba. And a bit mair freedom into the gemme.

Ok, I know the season hasnae even started yet, so its maybe is a bit ridulous to be over critical.

But I think we are getting too bogged down wi, systems and methods. Result is bland football.

Good skilled, creative football players (imo) are no getting oppoprtunities to express themselves.

Feel in my time there were characters on the pitch. Didnae aye work. But there wis expectancy

Now it seems players are told/expected, to play rigidly, to pre-set laid down plans and systems.

It disnae work for me. And I am no sae sure it works either for most players. Too clinical I think.

Best example are wingers. They brought, as well as skill, some individuality speed into a game.

I respect PH, and I do believe he has professionally thought through how he wants DFC to play.

But maybe it is the time to change course (no managers) .Bring back some creative wide men.

Finally (as I seem to be mair depressed as this post goes on) How aboot some shots at goal ?

As much as hartley did well last season with the players at his disposal,we were pretty bland to watch especially at Dens....

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Football is now becoming a game where all the excitement is passed out of the game (other than your Barcelona's, Arsenals, and Bayerns) where possession is kept for long spells but nothing is done with it to create chances. 

Personally, I do believe in keeping the ball as then the other team cant hurt you but we don't take enough risks to create the chances in and around the final third. 

1st game last season at home to Killie, the first thing I noticed was the lack of width which was a feature all season. But to play devils advocate, this strict and regimented style (in various forms) got us to the top 6.

I think it's not just a DFC issue but an issue for the whole game where managers or 'tacticians', as I think they should now be called, are scared of losing, rather than letting their players take risks. Maybe this is because of the pressures and 'success' culture that has filtered down from the top level of the game. 

PH has brought in a bit more creativity this year with getting rid of the last of the 'squad' players who weren't up to standard last year but got us promoted the previous season. 

One that particularly bugs me is Roberts, clearly a talented laddie who can give us that width but his heid is in the clouds. Such a shame. PH thinks we can be more adaptable this year which gives me confidence but time will tell.

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Three words,goals win games,shots on target win games,not difficult.Winners of all leagues score 80-110 goals per season.We should be winning most games at Dens this season,teams may sit in and hit on break,but more pops at goal required please equals points and entertainment.

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Football is now becoming a game where all the excitement is passed out of the game (other than your Barcelona's, Arsenals, and Bayerns) where possession is kept for long spells but nothing is done with it to create chances. 

Personally, I do believe in keeping the ball as then the other team cant hurt you but we don't take enough risks to create the chances in and around the final third. 

1st game last season at home to Killie, the first thing I noticed was the lack of width which was a feature all season. But to play devils advocate, this strict and regimented style (in various forms) got us to the top 6.

I think it's not just a DFC issue but an issue for the whole game where managers or 'tacticians', as I think they should now be called, are scared of losing, rather than letting their players take risks. Maybe this is because of the pressures and 'success' culture that has filtered down from the top level of the game. 

PH has brought in a bit more creativity this year with getting rid of the last of the 'squad' players who weren't up to standard last year but got us promoted the previous season. 

One that particularly bugs me is Roberts, clearly a talented laddie who can give us that width but his heid is in the clouds. Such a shame. PH thinks we can be more adaptable this year which gives me confidence but time will tell.

I sometimes think that we don't really know how to play with an out and out winger.  In the first half against Brechin, there were a few instances where Roberts was open on the right and should have got an early ball but for whatever reason the ball just didn't find it's way to him.  Other times he got the ball when there were a couple of opposition players around him.  Don't get me wrong - apart from half a game and then a deflection last season, I think he has been next to useless for us.  Regarding wing play, I used to think the same with Martin Boyle - the earlier he got the ball at his feet, the more dangerous he was.  He often got it at his feet with two or three men to beat.  I don't think we have many players known for playing the early ball, do we?  Most seem to want to make their impression on it before releasing it. 

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Think it is very unfair to dismiss what we are doing as boring. Last season, we were painful to watch at times because once we went past our first 12 or 13 players in the squad, the replacements weren't comfortable with playing to Hartley's philosophy so the result was a lot of players like Davo who have heart and put in a shift but are very limited footballers.

This summer, we have revamped the squad and added guys like Nick Ross, Kevin Holt, Rory Loy and Kane Hemmings who have all been described as good footballers. Pre-season has been dull but we've fielded so many players just to give them a game and not really made much of an effort to be direct and win games so we will be seeing something very different once that is changed.

Good skilled, creative football players (imo) are no getting oppoprtunities to express themselves.

They will get the opportunity to do that but we need to find an 11 to actually play together first. I will actually go on record and state that this will probably be the most flexible Dundee side in living memory. There is a lot of discussion about what system we are playing but in truth, there isn't anything rigid with what Hartley is doing. In fact, we're playing forwards who have the freedom to roam around the pitch, full backs are encouraged to bomb forward and we're only playing with one midfielder who is encouraged to sit deep.

I know it's a bit frustrating but the nature of what we're trying to do means that it takes a bit of time to become apparent.

Best example are wingers. They brought, as well as skill, some individuality speed into a game.

Proper wingers are great but it's a lot harder to pull off in practice.

Pacey wingers with any sort of footballing ability in Scotland:

  • Gary Mackay-Steven
  • Niall McGinn
  • Peter Pawlett
  • Johnny Hayes
  • Ryan Christie

They are literally the only players who come to mind as being pacey and good footballers. There are a few players who are developing in that role but for the most part, fast wide men who are technically gifted are very difficult to come by and they generally get snapped up very fast by really big teams.

Then you have guys like Boyle, McCluskey and Cardle who are great to watch in the second tier where they can rip apart part time full backs and cause damage but aren't good enough to consistently perform in the top flight effectively.

You can try to make a limited pacey player effective by giving them some sort of big target man. That then gives the issue of finding a forward who is good in the air and finding that and a player who is actually good is also very difficult. They do exist but the ones that are easily available are usually the types of players like Brian Graham,Josh Magennis and Lee Miller who are just painful to watch.

Going down the route of trying to rely on wingers as a primary strategy just seems a lot more painful at this level. In the First Division, we usually had one of the bigger budgets so were lucky enough to find guys like Riley who could destroy teams on his day but it's just a bit more difficult now. We could probably give it a go now and survive fine but it would be a squad with little potential to sell players on.

I'd rather go down the road of signing good footballers where we can find them and then trying to play around that. If we do that, it won't be easy but we're more likely to end up with players who become very valuable and for me, that should be the focus. We need to become a club who can sell a player on for big money every so often to keep sustainable

One of the biggest signing mistakes we have ever made was passing up the opportunity to sign Andrew Shinnie. Still can't believe the management team never saw the potential he had.

Edited by harry94
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Think it is very unfair to dismiss what we are doing as boring. Last season, we were painful to watch at times because once we went past our first 12 or 13 players in the squad, the replacements weren't comfortable with playing to Hartley's philosophy so the result was a lot of players like Davo who have heart and put in a shift but are very limited footballers.

This summer, we have revamped the squad and added guys like Nick Ross, Kevin Holt, Rory Loy and Kane Hemmings who have all been described as good footballers. Pre-season has been dull but we've fielded so many players just to give them a game and not really made much of an effort to be direct and win games so we will be seeing something very different once that is changed.

They will get the opportunity to do that but we need to find an 11 to actually play together first. I will actually go on record and state that this will probably be the most flexible Dundee side in living memory. There is a lot of discussion about what system we are playing but in truth, there isn't anything rigid with what Hartley is doing. In fact, we're playing forwards who have the freedom to roam around the pitch, full backs are encouraged to bomb forward and we're only playing with one midfielder who is encouraged to sit deep.

I know it's a bit frustrating but the nature of what we're trying to do means that it takes a bit of time to become apparent.

Proper wingers are great but it's a lot harder to pull off in practice.

Pacey wingers with any sort of footballing ability in Scotland:

  • Gary Mackay-Steven
  • Niall McGinn
  • Peter Pawlett
  • Johnny Hayes
  • Ryan Christie

They are literally the only players who come to mind as being pacey and good footballers. There are a few players who are developing in that role but for the most part, fast wide men who are technically gifted are very difficult to come by and they generally get snapped up very fast by really big things.

Then you have guys like Boyle, McCluskey and Cardle who are great to watch in the second tier where they can rip apart part time full backs and cause damage but aren't good enough to consistently perform in the top flight effectively.

You can try to make a limited pacey player effective by giving them some sort of big target man. That then gives the issue of finding a forward who is good in the air and finding that and a player who is actually good is also very difficult. They do exist but the ones that are easily available are usually the types of players like Brian Graham,Josh Magennis and Lee Miller who are just painful to watch.

Going down the route of trying to rely on wingers as a primary strategy just seems a lot more painful at this level. In the First Division, we usually had one of the bigger budgets so were lucky enough to find guys like Riley who could destroy teams on his day but it's just a bit more difficult now. We could probably give it a go now and survive fine but it would be a squad with little potential to sell players on.

I'd rather go down the road of signing good footballers where we can find them and then trying to play around that. If we do that, it won't be easy but we're more likely to end up with players who become very valuable and for me, that should be the focus. We need to become a club who can sell a player on for big money every so often to keep sustainable

One of the biggest signing mistakes we have ever made was passing up the opportunity to sign Andrew Shinnie. Still can't believe the management team never saw the potential he had.

As ever Harry, a good read and thought provoking, at least for me.

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Think it is very unfair to dismiss what we are doing as boring. Last season, we were painful to watch at times because once we went past our first 12 or 13 players in the squad, the replacements weren't comfortable with playing to Hartley's philosophy so the result was a lot of players like Davo who have heart and put in a shift but are very limited footballers.

This summer, we have revamped the squad and added guys like Nick Ross, Kevin Holt, Rory Loy and Kane Hemmings who have all been described as good footballers. Pre-season has been dull but we've fielded so many players just to give them a game and not really made much of an effort to be direct and win games so we will be seeing something very different once that is changed.

They will get the opportunity to do that but we need to find an 11 to actually play together first. I will actually go on record and state that this will probably be the most flexible Dundee side in living memory. There is a lot of discussion about what system we are playing but in truth, there isn't anything rigid with what Hartley is doing. In fact, we're playing forwards who have the freedom to roam around the pitch, full backs are encouraged to bomb forward and we're only playing with one midfielder who is encouraged to sit deep.

I know it's a bit frustrating but the nature of what we're trying to do means that it takes a bit of time to become apparent.

Proper wingers are great but it's a lot harder to pull off in practice.

Pacey wingers with any sort of footballing ability in Scotland:

  • Gary Mackay-Steven
  • Niall McGinn
  • Peter Pawlett
  • Johnny Hayes
  • Ryan Christie

They are literally the only players who come to mind as being pacey and good footballers. There are a few players who are developing in that role but for the most part, fast wide men who are technically gifted are very difficult to come by and they generally get snapped up very fast by really big teams.

Then you have guys like Boyle, McCluskey and Cardle who are great to watch in the second tier where they can rip apart part time full backs and cause damage but aren't good enough to consistently perform in the top flight effectively.

You can try to make a limited pacey player effective by giving them some sort of big target man. That then gives the issue of finding a forward who is good in the air and finding that and a player who is actually good is also very difficult. They do exist but the ones that are easily available are usually the types of players like Brian Graham,Josh Magennis and Lee Miller who are just painful to watch.

Going down the route of trying to rely on wingers as a primary strategy just seems a lot more painful at this level. In the First Division, we usually had one of the bigger budgets so were lucky enough to find guys like Riley who could destroy teams on his day but it's just a bit more difficult now. We could probably give it a go now and survive fine but it would be a squad with little potential to sell players on.

I'd rather go down the road of signing good footballers where we can find them and then trying to play around that. If we do that, it won't be easy but we're more likely to end up with players who become very valuable and for me, that should be the focus. We need to become a club who can sell a player on for big money every so often to keep sustainable

One of the biggest signing mistakes we have ever made was passing up the opportunity to sign Andrew Shinnie. Still can't believe the management team never saw the potential he had.

When Shinnie was at us, he was nowhere near the player he is now. I don't think anybody could predict that he would turn into such a great player.  He was just too lightweight during his two spells at dens. 

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When Shinnie was at us, he was nowhere near the player he is now. I don't think anybody could predict that he would turn into such a great player.  He was just too lightweight during his two spells at dens. 

He was lightweight and lacked end product at times but it seemed pretty obvious to me and a few others at the time that he was a good player and would develop to play comfortably at the level we were at. Remember a cracking goal against Livingston and a few other cracking assists. Efrem was industrious and handled himself better but Shinnie looked brilliant on the ball and was capable of doing great things. At the time, everyone from Rangers kept raving about how technically gifted Shinnie was and how he was one of their brighter prospects. There were even Scotland youth coaches who were commenting on him publicly.

Felt like we were too short term in our thinking back in those days and always looked to take the easy route. Guess that was probably down to how tough it was to get out of that league though.

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He was lightweight and lacked end product at times but it seemed pretty obvious to me and a few others at the time that he was a good player and would develop to play comfortably at the level we were at. Remember a cracking goal against Livingston and a few other cracking assists. Efrem was industrious and handled himself better but Shinnie looked brilliant on the ball and was capable of doing great things. At the time, everyone from Rangers kept raving about how technically gifted Shinnie was and how he was one of their brighter prospects. There were even Scotland youth coaches who were commenting on him publicly.

Felt like we were too short term in our thinking back in those days and always looked to take the easy route. Guess that was probably down to how tough it was to get out of that league though.

I think during his first spell he was better than the second time. 

I'm sure second time around, that's when we had Harkins , Kerr, Hart etc all in midfield so Shinnie had to do with coming on as sub. Clearly wasted and I'm sure a lot of people thought he wasn't really needed. 

Would absolutely LOVE! to have a him back now haha 

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