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Hartley The Scout V Hartley The Tactician


Mr Gandosaur

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Beginning to feel that Hartley is at completely ends of the spectrum when it comes to these 2 things.

His work in the transfer market is almost faultless. Guys like Stewart and Bain from teams like Alloa and Cowdenbeath, Extabergeun from East Fife, Loy from Falkirk - all excellent business. Early days but think Calder looks like a real find. Fancy Holt to come good too. His ability to find and signs players can't be faulted. Don't get me wrong there's been a couple of dodgy ones - Tank, Roberts, Stephen Mcginn etc but generally I think his business has been excellent and he has assembled our strongest squad since the Bonetti era.

However beginning to get really worried he doesn't have a clue what to do with them. Everyone seen that result coming today as soon as we lined up the way we did. I've always thought he would grow out of this persistence on a narrow, midfield diamond thing he seems to love but I just can't see it happening. The tactics from the manager are severely holding this talented group of players back IMO.

Really feel sorry for our fullbacks. Over the past season and a bit they have been hung out to dry time and time again. Holt has been made a scapegoat after being exposed as a result of Hartley's horrific 3-5-2 experiment. I don't think
Mcginn isn't as bad as he looks at times either, but again is exposed by having no protection in front of him. As soon as sides double up with a winger and an overlapping full back, we are brutally exposed in the wide areas. The amount of goals we concede from out wide is unbelievable. It was the exact same last season and hasn't got any better.

It's really concerning that our manager can't see these basic things that our fans have been screaming about for ages. It's really frustrating too because he has put a quality squad of players together IMO, but has no idea how to utilise them.

Edited by Mr Gandosaur
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Beginning to feel that Hartley is at completely ends of the spectrum when it comes to these 2 things.

His work in the transfer market is almost faultless. Guys like Stewart and Bain from teams like Alloa and Cowdenbeath, Extabergeun from East Fife, Loy from Falkirk - all excellent business. Early days but think Calder looks like a real find. Fancy Holt to come good too. His ability to find and signs players can't be faulted. Don't get me wrong there's been a couple of dodgy ones - Tank, Roberts, Stephen Mcginn etc but generally I think his business has been excellent and he has assembled our strongest squad since the Bonetti era.

However beginning to get really worried he doesn't have a clue what to do with them. Everyone seen that result coming today as soon as we lined up the way we did. I've always thought he would grow out of this persistence on a narrow, midfield diamond thing he seems to love but I just can't see it happening. The tactics from the manager are severely holding this talented group of players back IMO.

Really feel sorry for our fullbacks. Over the past season and a bit they have been hung out to dry time and time again. Holt has been made a scapegoat after being exposed as a result of Hartley's horrific 3-5-2 experiment. I don't think

Mcginn is as bad as he looks at times either, but again is exposed by having no protection in front of him. As soon as sides double up with a winger and an overlapping full back, we are brutally exposed in the wide areas. The amount of goals we concede from out wide is unbelievable. It was the exact same last season and hasn't got any better.

It's really concerning that our manager can't see these basic things that our fans have been screaming about for ages. It's really frustrating too because he has put a quality squad of players together IMO, but has no idea how to utilise them.

Post of the night IMO

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Good post Mr G. Don't agree 100% with everything in there but I can see exactly where you are coming from.

This is becoming a case of fitting players to a system he believes in rather than a system to suit the players we have. The problem is fundamental in my view- you can't play PH's system and then sit back and let teams come at you. You'll get ripped apart 9 times out of 10 at this level.

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Good post Mr G. Don't agree 100% with everything in there but I can see exactly where you are coming from.

This is becoming a case of fitting players to a system he believes in rather than a system to suit the players we have. The problem is fundamental in my view- you can't play PH's system and then sit back and let teams come at you. You'll get ripped apart 9 times out of 10 at this level.

Why does PH not see this. We are but mortal fans but it is quite obvious to us.

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Beginning to feel that Hartley is at completely ends of the spectrum when it comes to these 2 things.

His work in the transfer market is almost faultless. Guys like Stewart and Bain from teams like Alloa and Cowdenbeath, Extabergeun from East Fife, Loy from Falkirk - all excellent business. Early days but think Calder looks like a real find. Fancy Holt to come good too. His ability to find and signs players can't be faulted. Don't get me wrong there's been a couple of dodgy ones - Tank, Roberts, Stephen Mcginn etc but generally I think his business has been excellent and he has assembled our strongest squad since the Bonetti era.

However beginning to get really worried he doesn't have a clue what to do with them. Everyone seen that result coming today as soon as we lined up the way we did. I've always thought he would grow out of this persistence on a narrow, midfield diamond thing he seems to love but I just can't see it happening. The tactics from the manager are severely holding this talented group of players back IMO.

Really feel sorry for our fullbacks. Over the past season and a bit they have been hung out to dry time and time again. Holt has been made a scapegoat after being exposed as a result of Hartley's horrific 3-5-2 experiment. I don't think

Mcginn is as bad as he looks at times either, but again is exposed by having no protection in front of him. As soon as sides double up with a winger and an overlapping full back, we are brutally exposed in the wide areas. The amount of goals we concede from out wide is unbelievable. It was the exact same last season and hasn't got any better.

It's really concerning that our manager can't see these basic things that our fans have been screaming about for ages. It's really frustrating too because he has put a quality squad of players together IMO, but has no idea how to utilise them.

Totally agree with your view on the FB's, they're woefully exposed at times. I don't get why he sticks with the narrow formation, it boils my p*ss when it seems the whole crowd can see that we need width. I know we're hurting at the moment but PH must be doing something right though, 6th last season in our first season back up. 

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Good post Mr G. Don't agree 100% with everything in there but I can see exactly where you are coming from.

This is becoming a case of fitting players to a system he believes in rather than a system to suit the players we have. The problem is fundamental in my view- you can't play PH's system and then sit back and let teams come at you. You'll get ripped apart 9 times out of 10 at this level.

Agree with this today. I think he kind of attempted to play "wingers" today with Stewart and Low but it failed miserably. All comes back to the square pegs in round holes argument. Stewart never going to be any use when having to defend, and Low quite clearly can't play wide.

Reminds me a bit of when we had Lockwood and Forsyth. When Lockwood had Fozzy helping out down the left he looked like an excellent full back. Decent at defending, good passer and crosser because he has an outball and a winger he could overlap. As soon as Fozzy left and he was lumbered with Conroy who would never track back, he was badly exposed and really struggled. The same is happening now on a weekly basis to Mcginn and Holt/Irvine.

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Not really sure I agree with that yet. Last season, things started to fall apart a bit and we got destroyed in the New Years Derby and the prospect of being dragged into the relegation zone seemed very real. After that, there was a focus on getting points on the board and tactically, he played a blinder in grinding out results which meant we ended up very comfortable and kind of forgot about the danger we were facing. There was also a smart turn around after the first derby defeat and he got us playing a bit and handled things very well.

I think what we are seeing here is him trying to balance a bit of adventurism and get us playing in a certain way in the hope that it helps develop certain players. We had Harkins, Stewart, Ross and Hemmings on the pitch today and although they were pretty useless since we couldn't get any football on the go, it does show that he's trying to play as many positive players on the park and try to work round that. If we were to keep struggling, I imagine he'd do the same as last year and we'd focus on grinding out results.

I think a lot of what is being recalled over tactical decisions and team selection is taken out of context. What would fans have played against Aberdeen and Dunfermline? It was only really a choice between the 3 at the back or Carreiro to start and since he'd only had a short amount of game time as a sub at United last season; it does make sense in focusing on the strong 11. Hindsight would suggest otherwise but it wasn't really that mental a decision. Today and last week, Loy has just been returning from injury (after picking up quite a serious one in the summer) and then the boys that have arrived on loan are not experienced in this league so the natural instinct would be to ease them in. The narrow formation has mostly come about due to the players we've had at the club and trying to fit in a lot of quality and although it gets exposed badly at times, it's also led to us ripping teams apart.

Reckon that having Hemmings, Stewart and Loy together will massively improve the team and when Calder gets going, we'll be a much faster more direct team.

You may well be right but I think it would be wise to wait for a wee while and see how things are looking now that we have a fit Loy and two new players who are ready to start games. We've got a chance to go on a good run now so let's just see how we do in the next couple of months and how we're seeing the team set up now.

Edited by harry94
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Not really sure I agree with that yet. Last season, things started to fall apart a bit and we got destroyed in the New Years Derby and the prospect of being dragged into the relegation zone seemed very real. After that, there was a focus on getting points on the board and tactically, he played a blinder in grinding out results which meant we ended up very comfortable and kind of forgot about the danger we were facing. There was also a smart turn around after the first derby defeat and he got us playing a bit and handled things very well.

I think what we are seeing here is him trying to balance a bit of adventurism and get us playing in a certain way in the hope that it helps develop certain players. We had Harkins, Stewart, Ross and Hemmings on the pitch today and although they were pretty useless since we couldn't get any football on the go, it does show that he's trying to play as many positive players on the park and try to work round that. If we were to keep struggling, I imagine he'd do the same as last year and we'd focus on grinding out results.

I think a lot of what is being recalled over tactical decisions and team selection is taken out of context. What would fans have played against Aberdeen and Dunfermline? It was only really a choice between the 3 at the back or Carreiro to start and since he'd only had a short amount of game time as a sub at United last season; it does make sense in focusing on the strong 11. Hindsight would suggest otherwise but it wasn't really that mental a decision. Today and last week, Loy has just been returning from injury (after picking up quite a serious one in the summer) and then the boys that have arrived on loan are not experienced in this league so the natural instinct would be to ease them in. The narrow formation has mostly come about due to the players we've had at the club and trying to fit in a lot of quality and although it gets exposed badly at times, it's also led to us ripping teams apart.

Reckon that having Hemmings, Stewart and Loy together will massively improve the team and when Calder gets going, we'll be a much faster more direct team.

You may well be right but I think it would be wise to wait for a wee while and see how things are looking now that we have a fit Loy and two new players who are ready to start games. We've got a chance to go on a good run now so let's just see how we do in the next couple of months and how we're seeing the team set up now.

Maybe last season PH's tactics were constrained by the players at his disposal, this season he's had a free rein to bring in wingers, we've got one on loan. Now that might be because he couldn't find what he was after at the right price but he's had the option to play a wider more expansive game if he wanted to. I think its safe to say his preferred option is the narrow formation while you, me and the shithouse cat might not like it, as you point out, it's been effective.

Those not so close to the club as us fans will look at last years placing and our current position (albeit, early doors) as 'not out of place'. While taking 6 today is a sickener, I doubt anyone expected us to win. I get the argument that 6 is embarrassing and we need to make sure that it doesn't happen again but the season goes on, our next game is more important than our last, lets get our sh*t in one sock for next saturday.

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Beginning to feel that Hartley is at completely ends of the spectrum when it comes to these 2 things.

His work in the transfer market is almost faultless. Guys like Stewart and Bain from teams like Alloa and Cowdenbeath, Extabergeun from East Fife, Loy from Falkirk - all excellent business. Early days but think Calder looks like a real find. Fancy Holt to come good too. His ability to find and signs players can't be faulted. Don't get me wrong there's been a couple of dodgy ones - Tank, Roberts, Stephen Mcginn etc but generally I think his business has been excellent and he has assembled our strongest squad since the Bonetti era.

However beginning to get really worried he doesn't have a clue what to do with them. Everyone seen that result coming today as soon as we lined up the way we did. I've always thought he would grow out of this persistence on a narrow, midfield diamond thing he seems to love but I just can't see it happening. The tactics from the manager are severely holding this talented group of players back IMO.

Really feel sorry for our fullbacks. Over the past season and a bit they have been hung out to dry time and time again. Holt has been made a scapegoat after being exposed as a result of Hartley's horrific 3-5-2 experiment. I don't think

Mcginn is as bad as he looks at times either, but again is exposed by having no protection in front of him. As soon as sides double up with a winger and an overlapping full back, we are brutally exposed in the wide areas. The amount of goals we concede from out wide is unbelievable. It was the exact same last season and hasn't got any better.

It's really concerning that our manager can't see these basic things that our fans have been screaming about for ages. It's really frustrating too because he has put a quality squad of players together IMO, but has no idea how to utilise them.

Excellent post m8, bang on the money and I hope that this is the wake up call that PH needs to see that his tactics needs changed. I only hope that he isn't dogged enough to keeping going with them just so he can prove a point.

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Just watched the match in full on Dee TV. Fortunate that it was only 6-0. Tend to agree with the analysis in the first thread post. Wanted to add the following:

1st half threat mostly came from the right-hand side. At least Low was doubling back to help out Irvine on the left. Greg Stewart couldn't afford McGinn that kind of protection on the right, but should have. It was painfully obviously to see goals were going to come through that area, yet Hartley did nothing. Anything through the middle was mostly being mopped up by KT/central defence.

2nd half: KT/GGH go off (GGH was pedestrian at best) and Low moves to middle of park, exposing Irvine. Calder is just young but has good pace and a decent final ball it seems, but offers little defensively. Hence a couple goals come through the left-back channel.

Saw this result coming though. Defensive lapses have been there for all to see in previous games but have gone unpunished, not against Celtic though, who were quality but given far too much time on ball.

Side needs freshened up now next game. Quicker legs are needed throughout. GGH, Irvine, Konrad to be dropped for me and a more adventurous system. 4-5-1 not cutting it I'm afraid.

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