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When/if The Time Comes For Dfc To Appoint A New Manager. Should We..... ?


Gedee

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Be finding one from our own squad ? Especially bearing in mind the shambles o' a process oor neighbours went through ?

Dandy' (poster) started a New Topic on the attributes of James Mcpake. He would/could be a likely candidate to consider.

Was intending asking the same question on Dandy's post ......(but wisnae sure if by doing so, I would be going off-topic)

Would  find it hard to believe, if PH reaches top success here and moves on, preparation & plans are no already in place.

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Im not too keen on promoting a player into management, as an assistant defiently and then top man down the line. But lets say we have a few very successful seasons with hartley, i would prefer someone more experienced to come in and fill that big roll and continue the success that may happen. I know hartley only had experience in the lower leagues before us but everyone could see his talents.

Someone more experienced as the next manager is what i would prefer personally.

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Im not too keen on promoting a player into management, as an assistant defiently and then top man down the line. But lets say we have a few very successful seasons with hartley, i would prefer someone more experienced to come in and fill that big roll and continue the success that may happen. I know hartley only had experience in the lower leagues before us but everyone could see his talents.

Someone more experienced as the next manager is what i would prefer personally.

Thanks for responding dee' .... I think I can see where you are coming from here but, I am no sure if I agree.

If PH left, or was dismissed from DFC, because basically he failed, then I could see the sense of bringing in a new manager with new ideas.

If however, he moved on because he wanted to build on the success he has had with DFC and then now feels the time is right to progress

with another Club, that might offer even more potential for his further development, would it not be more sensible, under these circumstances

to offer the job to someone within the club who is totally famliar with his style, systems & methods? Either way a wee bit planning & foresight

can sometimes go a long way.  But the main thing to remember is ... DFC are progressing slow but steady. The ither lot are in FREEFALL :lol2:

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The only "succession planning" that I've ever heard of that worked seemed to be at Liverpool with Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan. Don't think it's a common concept and it didn't work out well for Rangers with Ally McCoist. You don't know what circumstances you might have to deal with at the time of finding a new manager, and I wouldn't worry about a new one when this one is working his way through a plan and can see for himself that he still has more to learn. 

Edited by BCram
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It's a lottery to be honest. I hope we avoid it as long as possible.

Alloa gambled on Hartley and a previously unproven manager led them to consecutive promotions. That gave him a track record of success which landed him the Dundee job.

If Alloa hadnt taken that punt on a new manager they would t be an established championship team and we might not have been in the top league never mind top 6.

Similarly guys like Allan Johnston and Ian Murray have done well at part time sides but both have struggled when moving to bigger sides. Ian Murray is struggling badly at st Mirren but when we moved for PH, Murray was doing a better job at Dumbarton than Hartley had done in the championship with Alloa.

The last highly rated manager to go from the championship to the top league was a certain JMAC who's inherited squad of quality dragged him to a cup final or two and papered over the fact that they finished lower in every successive season he was in charge... Look at the job he has done and the state that club is in now....

McKinnon and Jim McIntyre are 2 managers I admire at the moment, both relatively young and doing well in their respective jobs - where county are now compared to where they were when McIntyre took over is incredible. However these 2 are tainted and on early showings James Fowler may be a good bet?!

I'm not a fan of a player stepping right into a managers role at the same club. Too friendly with the squad and might effect his decisions and the working relationships. If rumours are to be believed that was a HUGE part of Hamiltons issue with the transition from Alex Neil to Martin Canning.

As I said I think it's a total lottery and dependant on so many factors. The number of gaffers to go to Inverness for example and do extremely well only to flounder when they move on is a classic example of how some people fit in one place but don't in another.

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The way the B.O.D have been going about their business so far I'd be surprised if they didn't have a legacy strategy in place for such a time. 

I'd prefer when the time came that it was a candidate who's managed before at other clubs and has some experience / success.

I think it’s a big ask for a current player to be stepping up into management at SPFL level and honestly wouldn't be up for Dundee fc taking that type of risk.  

External candidates also allow us fans to throw names into the hat as well, not sure if B.O.D's take these into consideration but it surely helps them along the way. 

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Thanks for responding dee' .... I think I can see where you are coming from here but, I am no sure if I agree.

If PH left, or was dismissed from DFC, because basically he failed, then I could see the sense of bringing in a new manager with new ideas.

If however, he moved on because he wanted to build on the success he has had with DFC and then now feels the time is right to progress

with another Club, that might offer even more potential for his further development, would it not be more sensible, under these circumstances

to offer the job to someone within the club who is totally famliar with his style, systems & methods? Either way a wee bit planning & foresight

can sometimes go a long way.  But the main thing to remember is ... DFC are progressing slow but steady. The ither lot are in FREEFALL :lol2:

Thats a fair point mate, it really all depends on how it will eventually end with hartley, hopefully not for a very long time mind! As deefiant has said, a player can always be too friendly with the team. I think that was barry smiths problem after a while. I would prefer a right ar**hole in charge that can be ruthless when needed but also have that ability to motivate a team ,especially on bad form. Thats something hartley can do so well.

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I think the American's may fancy giving Eddie Johnson a try since he'll no doubt buy into their philosophy as I assume he came to the club based on their recommendation to Hartley.

In terms of players, our 'elder' statesmans if you like are GGH, McPake, Irvine and Thomson. I believe McPake does coaching on the side so he's another slim possibility of replacing Hartley. GGH I don't view as a manager and Irvine is the one that I reckon could turn into a half decent manager, but I highly doubt we'd take that sort of risk. He'd more likely have to go through a coaching route with us for years until he gets even a chance as caretaker or manage a lower league side first.

If we're in as good a spot as I believe we are and will be when Hartley decides to depart - I think we should aim high in terms of our manager, therefore, I think our first choice should be Morten Wieghorst. Probably still out of our reach but done well in his stints as a manager thus far, has the obvious Dundee link and has been an assistant at a very high level (The EPL) as well.

If we're looking at former players, another decent shout would be Noel Blake - He was the England U19's manager until very recently.

That's all pie in the sky stuff though, we'll more than likely be linked with Jimmy Calderwood and Jim Duffy if he continues doing half decent at Morton!

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Similarly guys like Allan Johnston and Ian Murray have done well at part time sides but both have struggled when moving to bigger sides. Ian Murray is struggling badly at st Mirren but when we moved for PH, Murray was doing a better job at Dumbarton than Hartley had done in the championship with Alloa.

To be fair Deefiant, did Hartley not leave Alloa in a play-off spot (To the Prem) when he left them? (Admittedly after taking a humping from Murray's Dumbarton).

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We must avoid the type of Manager that's just looking for a 2 or 3 year job.

Hartley said from day one that he wanted to build something to last at Dens and he works well with our Yank Directors.

He is of course not perfect and I have given him stick for some of his bigger mistakes, in particular his inability to motivate our players for the big matches, however I hope he has another 2 years at least in his post.

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Think Deefiant has summed up things pretty well - there are just so many variables to consider.

When Hartley moves on though, I'd like there to be a very thorough and wide process. We see many managers who have very mixed records and let's be honest, we're going to struggle to find the perfect candidate. It's a case of the board collecting as much behind the scenes information as possible about someone and also speaking to them seeing if they can forge a relationship together.

Just for arguments sake, you might get someone like Pat Fenlon (I'm not suggesting him at all but just using him as a left field example) who pops up keen on the job and find he interviews very well. From that point, I'd be calling the senior trusted players in the squad who know him in some way (i.e. Thomson and McPake) and just form an investigation into what's went wrong for him before and if it's something that could be avoided at Dundee. In the end, it's down to Nelms and Keyes to try and reason things as much as possible but in the end, they are going to have to take a risk whatever they decide.

I don't mind it as much if we get it wrong, I'd be very angry though if we were to just lazily appoint the bookies favourite because they were next in line and easiest to appoint. St Johnstone under Geoff Brown and Steve Brown have always put a great deal of effort into finding their right man and although they've had one or two failures, they have generally got things right and come up with an appointment that hasn't been obvious.

Ex players don't really appeal to me too much. If they have happen to be in the right place and very keen on the job, I'd be happy for them to be considered but I don't think they should get a golden ticket over other applicants. Obviously being enthusiastic about the challenge of running the club is great though.

To address the original point though, although I'm open minded and hope we consider whoever applies, I don't think we will (and my instinct tells me we shouldn't) appoint from within. McCabe is Hartley's bad cop and had a really really bad managerial spell. Creaney doesn't seem to have ever expressed a wish to get into first team coaching. Johnson, McPake and Thomson are only 31 and Irvine is 30 so I kind of see them as very young (for the next few years) to be transforming to a first team manager. Maybe one of them might give us a wee shock and demonstrate their abilities to handle all the extra challenges we've outlined in this thread but it is pretty rare in general.

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Think Deefiant has summed up things pretty well - there are just so many variables to consider.

When Hartley moves on though, I'd like there to be a very thorough and wide process. We see many managers who have very mixed records and let's be honest, we're going to struggle to find the perfect candidate. It's a case of the board collecting as much behind the scenes information as possible about someone and also speaking to them seeing if they can forge a relationship together.

Just for arguments sake, you might get someone like Pat Fenlon (I'm not suggesting him at all but just using him as a left field example) who pops up keen on the job and find he interviews very well. From that point, I'd be calling the senior trusted players in the squad who know him in some way (i.e. Thomson and McPake) and just form an investigation into what's went wrong for him before and if it's something that could be avoided at Dundee. In the end, it's down to Nelms and Keyes to try and reason things as much as possible but in the end, they are going to have to take a risk whatever they decide.

I don't mind it as much if we get it wrong, I'd be very angry though if we were to just lazily appoint the bookies favourite because they were next in line and easiest to appoint. St Johnstone under Geoff Brown and Steve Brown have always put a great deal of effort into finding their right man and although they've had one or two failures, they have generally got things right and come up with an appointment that hasn't been obvious.

Ex players don't really appeal to me too much. If they have happen to be in the right place and very keen on the job, I'd be happy for them to be considered but I don't think they should get a golden ticket over other applicants. Obviously being enthusiastic about the challenge of running the club is great though.

To address the original point though, although I'm open minded and hope we consider whoever applies, I don't think we will (and my instinct tells me we shouldn't) appoint from within. McCabe is Hartley's bad cop and had a really really bad managerial spell. Creaney doesn't seem to have ever expressed a wish to get into first team coaching. Johnson, McPake and Thomson are only 31 and Irvine is 30 so I kind of see them as very young (for the next few years) to be transforming to a first team manager. Maybe one of them might give us a wee shock and demonstrate their abilities to handle all the extra challenges we've outlined in this thread but it is pretty rare in general.

Human nature being what it is, it would take an exceptional character of that age to manage guys who are of a similar age (or older), age does command respect. This would apply even more so to a 'colleague' who gets promoted. Like yourself, I wouldn't automatically rule anyone out (no matter who they've played for) and would be happy with someone like Tommy Wright (although that would be a huge change in style of play so very unlikely as it would need a new squad) who has had recent success so would be more likely to 'command' the dressing room. I still think we're a couple of years away from having to worry about it though.

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