Paul Hartley

[Cobra]

Lots of talk on here since the Aberdeen game about the manager's position and who else could do a better job so thought I'd do another poll to see if the mood of the support really has shifted dramatically.

[Ivan Drago]

I voted the next few games for 3 but really I mean the next few winnable games not Celtic/Hearts etc 

[Dundeefc1783]

I think he still has the potential to be a very good manager for the club but he really does have to look at how he sets up his team cause it's just not working. 

[Abdul Latif]

10 minutes ago, Ivan Drago said:

I voted the next few games for 3 but really I mean the next few winnable games not Celtic/Hearts etc 

A fair point Ivan.

I also voted the same not really taking into consideration the next few games.

That said, if we get an Aberdeen type hiding of a few year ago off Celtic i'll not be caring who we were playing.

[Ricky Spanish]

Biggest irritation for me is that when things go wrong, he never seems to take anything from it, learn from his mistakes etc. Comes across as stubbornness bordering on arrogance. He never holds his hands up and says "I got it wrong today," always seems to be someone else's fault. Bottom line is we just haven't progressed under Hartley.

All that said, I'm not a fan of knee-jerk reactions and getting shot of a manger after a few poor results/performances. It's very rarely the answer, so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but should we be deep in the sh*t come Christmas, can see the pressure on him being cranked up.

[Gedee]

Although I started that post that seemed to cause a bit controvery wi' some posters, I'm still in a dilemma.

No sure if I was meant to vote in 3 headings. However I did.  1) on the fence. 2) so-so.3) next few games.

[mondee93]

2 minutes ago, Gedee said:

Although I started that post that seemed to cause a bit controvery wi' some posters, I'm still in a dilemma.

No sure if I was meant to vote in 3 headings. However I did.  1) on the fence. 2) so-so.3) next few games.

you really stirred the hornets nest with your topic gedee, but it was entirely appropriate to post.

[mondee93]

ive voted 1) on the fence( ive never bought into the hype and although i wish i was wrong i dont see anything to change that)

                  2)so so (he's done ok but no real progress imo)

.                 3) I would give til christmas before really questioning his position as its too early just now)

[harry94]

I don't mean to be a dick to you guys, I know you all want the best but it is getting on my tits a bit. It feels like the aftermath of this match has been a total over reaction and I think it's been totally unreasonable. I know it's not just a Dundee thing but it does feel like we always like to play up a crisis and bring much more pressure on ourselves.

This 'taking Dundee backwards' talk based on the transition of last season to this season is harsh as you can't really hold someone to the same standard when they've had £1 million of quality removed from the team. Even applying it to the transition from between 2014 and 2015 is also a big disingenuous IMO as despite finishing lower in the league, we were nervous about relegation for a longer period in our first season and had we picked up an additional point, we would have been serious contenders for Europe (in 14/15, we were 5 points behind 4th at the time of split and in 15/16 we were 2 points). I get that league placing is the regular measurement but some years, you do get a lot fortune and we got pretty fortunate with the Hamilton collapse and teams around us having a collapse in form in our first season while last year I could point to quite a few moments where things went against us and we were pretty harshly dealt with.

This season, we have lost to Aberdeen (with a much bigger budget) and looked close to nicking something before a goal 14 minutes to go. The other loss against Rangers was also not a million miles away from being converted into a point. Hamilton, Killie and Motherwell have all fought every team they've played this season and been competitive. A decent win up in the Highlands against Ross County too. We've signed a lot of players and they are all still learning to play together. As much as it's maybe not been that evident yet, we've signed quite a few players who have a reputation for being good players at this level and I don't think it's really reasonable to write them off just yet.

The way people have been speaking in the aftermath of this game is like we've been losing games against poor sides. We are not that desperate yet and we've spent the whole of Hartley's reign being in a much more secure top flight status (I don't think we've ever spent an extended period where falling into the relegation spots has been close) than we've had for 12 years (which is more than half my adult life) and despite losing two players, we have a squad that have players in it who actually have a future value of some sort and who other teams would be very happy to pick up. The truth of football is that we can't just sack our way to cup wins (unless we're Chelsea), it generally takes a lot of building behind the scenes and years of setbacks. Just because we are a club with a bigger average attendance than some other sides doesn't mean we are guranteed success and that's evidenced when you see a team like Hibs in the second tier.

Edited 19 September 2016 by harry94

[Gedee]

13 minutes ago, mondee93 said:

you really stirred the hornets nest with your topic gedee, but it was entirely appropriate to post.

Thanks for your comment above mondee'. It was not my intention  to stir up trouble, or make myself, Public Enemy No1.

As said in an associated post, I thought long & hard before putting it on the forum...Discussion? YES.  sh*t stirring? NO.

[mondee93]

28 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't mean to be a dick to you guys, I know you all want the best but it is getting on my tits a bit. It feels like the aftermath of this match has been a total over reaction and I think it's been totally unreasonable. I know it's not just a Dundee thing but it does feel like we always like to play up a crisis and bring much more pressure on ourselves.

This 'taking Dundee backwards' talk based on the transition of last season to this season is harsh as you can't really hold someone to the same standard when they've had £1 million of quality removed from the team. Even applying it to the transition from between 2014 and 2015 is also a big disingenuous IMO as despite finishing lower in the league, we were nervous about relegation for a longer period in our first season and had we picked up an additional point, we would have been serious contenders for Europe (in 14/15, we were 5 points behind 4th at the time of split and in 15/16 we were 2 points). I get that league placing is the regular measurement but some years, you do get a lot fortune and we got pretty fortunate with the Hamilton collapse and teams around us having a collapse in form in our first season while last year I could point to quite a few moments where things went against us and we were pretty harshly dealt with.

This season, we have lost to Aberdeen (with a much bigger budget) and looked close to nicking something before a goal 14 minutes to go. The other loss against Rangers was also not a million miles away from being converted into a point. Hamilton, Killie and Motherwell have all fought every team they've played this season and been competitive. A decent win up in the Highlands against Ross County too. We've signed a lot of players and they are all still learning to play together. As much as it's maybe not been that evident yet, we've signed quite a few players who have a reputation for being good players at this level and I don't think it's really reasonable to write them off just yet.

The way people have been speaking in the aftermath of this game is like we've been losing games against poor sides. We are not that desperate yet and we've spent the whole of Hartley's reign being in a much more secure top flight status (I don't think we've ever spent an extended period where falling into the relegation spots has been close) than we've had for 12 years (which is more than half my adult life) and despite losing two players, we have a squad that have players in it who actually have a future value of some sort and who other teams would be very happy to pick up. The truth of football is that we can't just sack our way to cup wins (unless we're Chelsea), it generally takes a lot of building behind the scenes and years of setbacks. Just because we are a club with a bigger average attendance than some other sides doesn't mean we are guranteed success and that's evidenced when you see a team like Hibs in the second tier.

Harry i see what your saying ,but whats blown up shows the perils of online forums. Gedees original post yesterday just provided questions looking for opinions and cobra ( who's pro hartley) is just judging the mood in a simple way rather than reading hundreds of posts.

              I really cant understand why people get so worked up about whats said here,unless its personal. Its a forum a place to put opinions ,ideas or just discuss things. People will argue and some topics get out of hand , i find it interesting to see who agrees with my point of view but also who doesnt and what their view is.

         At the end of the day some are happy some aren't, but i've yet to see anybody say they really want PH punted, that might change by xmas who knows but these questions have been going on since this time last year , so its not new !

 

Edited 19 September 2016 by mondee93

[harry94]

Just now, mondee93 said:

Harry i see what your saying ,but whats blown up shows the perils of online forums. Gedees original post yesterday just provided questions looking for opinions and cobra ( who's pro hartley) is just judging the mood in a simple way rather than reading hundreds of posts. I really cant understand why people get so worked up about whats said here,unless its personal. Its a forum a place to put opinions ,ideas or just discuss things. People will argue and some topics get out of hand , i find it interesting to see who agrees with my point of view but also who doesnt and what their view is. At the end of the day some are happy some aren't, but iv've yet to see anybody say they really want PH punted, that might change by xmas who knows but these questions have been going on since this time last year , so its not new !

 

 

To be honest, it's not really here that is so bad. (most) Posters aren't really out to fight each other and even though I disagree with many, they do provide some sort of justification.

 

It's more the social media stuff that's frustrating. Every club has their angry minority and tbh I have seen people calling for Hartley's head and pretty much slate our players non-stop for the last couple of years (with it flaring up a bit more right now). I get that our team have got to be big boys (it is their job I suppose) but it projects a negative atmosphere about the club. Even if something isn't true, a cult-like belief in it can still be a pretty damaging thing.