To Be Expected?

[HK Blues]

I wonder if Hartley feels his job should be on the line?

If I put myself in his shoes for a minute, he lost his best two players at the death which left him little chance to reorganise his thinking for the squad. Should he have expected/predicted this? Maybe yes, but what would you expect him to do - go out and replace them both with money we probably didn't have just in case they did go? If I'm being fair I'd say he probably had his hands tied.

As for the Harkins sutuation, as long as things are rolling along ok, little memtion is made of him. When we hit the buffers, suddenly a lot of support for Harkins being the victim, with a few shouts for him to replace Hartley. Boring as it is to say, we don't know what happened to lead to Harkins going, but just my simple thinking tells me a manager doesn't get rid of a valuable "team" member out of pettiness or arrogance. Not very often anyway. Perhaps it's Harkins we should be p*ssed off at for putting Hartley in an impossible position? Who knows?

It's fair to say we've all seen some flaws in Hartley in his time at Dens, but he never claimed to be perfect. I'd hope the flaws are more than countered by his strengths. 

Anyhow, it's a results driven business and Hartley knows this. Fair or not (I'll say not IMO), being bottom of the league tends to lose managers theit jobs even if the margin is small. As an aside, remember Van Gall was fired last season for (presumably)missing out on CL football- they were next behind M City on goal difference but off he went.

I for one hope the BOD are level headed about Hartley's tenure and make s decision based on the total picture rather unlike us fans who tend to be more reactive based on league position. If we were one place higher I'm not sure the calls for Hartley's head would be so loud.

Whatever happens, i just hope we aren't heading back so soon to the lower leagues, especially after having got the feeling we were kicking on after so long in the doldrums.That would be a very, very sore one to take and would set us back who knows how long or how much. Kinda unthinkable.

Rarely has a game against Partick Thistle felt so important!

[Mary]

It's a worrying situation to be in. You can't lose your 2 leading goal scorers at the start of a season. Look what happened to our neighbours.  As Dee supporters we know only to well how hard it is to escape from the Championship. Once Loy regained fitness last season he never got a look in as Stewart & Hemmings were scoring for fun. Yordi was brought in to learn his craft, to be an understudy, a future replacement but instead is being thrown in at the deep end.

 The Partick Thistle game is crucial now & lets hope the players have their shooting boots on.

[Champions 1962]

I think that is a misconception that we lost  Stewart and Hemmings at the end of the transfer window, Hemmings went at the end of July, Stewart mid August. Stewart leaving was inevitable, it was just  matter of where and how much. 

In all businesses you need contingency planning which we failed to do.

 

 

 

[DFC1974]

My belief is that the contingency for the inevitable departure of Stewart was ElBak and, as mentioned above, Hemmings left in July so there was ample time to source a replacement. So whilst I agree that Hartley's hands were tied by having to sell the players, I disagree that he's had less time than any other manager in the country to operate the transfer market effectively over the closed season. Additionally, Stewart rejected a renewed contract offer weeks, if not months, before he was eventually sold. Hemmings' contract buy-out clause in addition to his scoring record should have prompted at the very least a bit of scouting for potential replacements in anticipation of bids coming in way before the end if yhe season. Planning ahead for inevitabilites is a basic management.

Hartley's job, in my opinion, is fully justified to be under intense scrutiny. We are bottom of the league, on an abysmal run of form, the performaces on the pitch have produced some of the most dire in a long time and we are incapable of keeping a clean sheet. Even when we do actually play well in the odd spell in the occasional game, we cant score. Add this to us getting papped out a cup by Peterhead and East Fife and its grim reading for any BoD. These factors are not just isolated to this season either. The run up to the split that cost us a top six finish and thereafter, excluding the doon derby, have been disastrous. 

I think only the success of the first season has given a 'benifit of doubt' that has prevented the axe from being wielded already.  

[Cobra]

Did you see Hartley on the box tonight? He says the players and the board are 100% behind him but at the same time he's not daft and knows he needs to start winning.

I think we can fairly certain there will be no change in manager before the international break, regardless of results.

[Oh_Carolina_Port]

Doubt the board would have sanctioned a signing today if they had any imminent plans to punt Hartley

[CC33]

I dont see PH under any pressure from board - why would a manager on thin ice be allowed to bring in a player.
I think its totally wrong that PH is under no pressure.
He should be as this season so far have been nothing short of shocking - adding the cup exit also.

[Spiritof62]

Regardless of who starts it's time for the players to start earning their money and payback the manager and fans.

So far this season they have not looked like professionals and take personal and collective responsibility on the pitch.

We have a poor record in 'must win' situations, so it's not going to be easy.

[DFC1974]

41 minutes ago, Cobra said:

Did you see Hartley on the box tonight? He says the players and the board are 100% behind him but at the same time he's not daft and knows he needs to start winning.

I think we can fairly certain there will be no change in manager before the international break, regardless of results.

To be fair though Cobra, I think it's impossible him to say otherwise. How would it look from a business perspective if he openly said on national tv that " The board and the squad are split 50/50 as to whether or not I am the right man to get us out this mess"?

Regardless of the situation, he cannot let himself become publically undermined by the media, his players or his directors.

 I think this is a crucial couple of matches coming up for Hartley and if we are still on 6 or 7 points by this time next week, I think we will have a better idea of whether or not the board are 100% behind him. I hope hope he pulls it out the bag for Dundee, I really do. I think PH has been the best manager we've had in about 25-30 years but football management is ruthless and it's all about results. 

[Bobby123]

Hamilton one up at half time.

Our defeat at Perth was very predictable-will we do any better at Hamilton.

I very much doubt- I don't think any of our players won their personal battles with their opposite number on Sunday-same again on Saturday I am afraid.

How we have ended up with this midfield is the root of the problem-it all comes back to Hartleys signings?

[chomp my root]

1 hour ago, DFC1974 said:

My belief is that the contingency for the inevitable departure of Stewart was ElBak and, as mentioned above, Hemmings left in July so there was ample time to source a replacement. So whilst I agree that Hartley's hands were tied by having to sell the players, I disagree that he's had less time than any other manager in the country to operate the transfer market effectively over the closed season. Additionally, Stewart rejected a renewed contract offer weeks, if not months, before he was eventually sold. Hemmings' contract buy-out clause in addition to his scoring record should have prompted at the very least a bit of scouting for potential replacements in anticipation of bids coming in way before the end if yhe season. Planning ahead for inevitabilites is a basic management.

Hartley's job, in my opinion, is fully justified to be under intense scrutiny. We are bottom of the league, on an abysmal run of form, the performaces on the pitch have produced some of the most dire in a long time and we are incapable of keeping a clean sheet. Even when we do actually play well in the odd spell in the occasional game, we cant score. Add this to us getting papped out a cup by Peterhead and East Fife and its grim reading for any BoD. These factors are not just isolated to this season either. The run up to the split that cost us a top six finish and thereafter, excluding the doon derby, have been disastrous. 

I think only the success of the first season has given a 'benifit of doubt' that has prevented the axe from being wielded already.  

You're assuming then that PH sat with his thumb up his arse. Its entirely impossible that he's been looking high and low to find potential replacements but not been able to find them for our budget.

[DFC1974]

1 minute ago, chomp my root said:

You're assuming then that PH sat with his thumb up his ar**. Its entirely impossible that he's been looking high and low to find potential replacements but not been able to find them for our budget.

I think I might have worded it poorly, I don't think he has had this thumb up his ar** at all. As I stated, I believe ElBak was identified as Stewart's replacement early on; additionally, I assume Loy was an internal replacement for Hemmings whilst Yordi was the backup.  My point to the OP was that PH's hands were not tied by the timings of the transfers and more importantly he could have/should have/or did predict that Stewart and probably Hemmings were going to leave and had his scouts scouting much earlier than the closed season. The scrutiny PH is under now, rightly imo, is not down to inactivity or bad timings just down to bad choices or tactics.