Stuart Mccall

[Ivan Drago]

Cobra....Hartley won the third division when Alloa had just been relegated and were favourites to go back up....

He then got through the play offs i believe against Dunfermline ( that was punching above his weight)

He then barely got us over the line in the first......Was his record any better than Brown that season??

I just dont get thiis utter love in with Hartley, he has so many faults its untrue

Do i want him sacked?? NO he deserves at least till the end of the season to keep us up, but spare us hes the next Alex Ferguson as potrayed by some....

Paul Hartley has to start earning his wages quickly.......this league will never be as weak again and for him not too keep us up will haunt us for years...

Mr s

Pretty much spot on.

Let's not forget Hartley has recently overseen one of the worst results in the club's history there. Derbies are the biggest games of our season so the heaviest ever defeat must rank as one of the darkest days in the club's history.

Some posters have backed themselves into a corner following their over vilification of Brown and subsequent rampant over hype of Hartley. For instance if Jocky had overseen that result do you think folk would be so calm?

We are in free fall and I hope Hartley can stop it. Beleive me I want to be proved wrong here.

[Psychedelic]

All things told, we had a fairly good record, in the first with Bomber. However, we were utterly garbage, and were top of the league despite him, as opposed to his managerial genius. We have, on the whole, been a much more attractive team to watch under Hartley, and I've actually enjoyed watching Dundee this season, again for the most part.

Sacking Hartley would be absolutely criminal. The short term-ism that our club has been run on for the last 40 years has nearly killed us off, twice. No club that changes manager every 12 months has any success whatsoever, the continaul turn over of playing staff, coaches, managers, board members and everything else has meant as opposed to becoming a club on a sound financial footing, with a youth academy that occasionally brings through young talent, we've been forced to rely on journey men players who spend their whole career never spending any more than 1 or 2 seasons in a single place.

People wonder why we struggle to get good players and managers on board, but if I was involved in professional football the last place I'd want to end up is Dens, where as soon as things don't go your way the more bi polar element of the support is calling for your head as you're on a poor run of form, or screaming you're sh**e after misplacing a 40 yard pass.

This is all just my opinion though, I'm just sick fed up of the club always being in a constant state of crisis or upheaval and until we, as a support can learn to be a bit more patient and understanding, the club will never be able to sort it out and have a bit of stability. Until we find that stability, we will never be sucessful.

[Ludo*1]

Agree with that 100% Psy.

[TheDarkBlues]

So what happens when the next manager and the manager after that goes on a bad run? This mentality that some of our supporters have about our managers and replacing this is either foolish, short sighted or just plain stupid.

You guys have to start looking at the bigger picture here. While things are not quite working out on the pitch he is doing a lot of things right off the pitch that should be the basics at any club. The guy has only been here for 11 months and you don't sort of 40 years of mismanagement in that short period of time. We are in a slump and it's not pretty but I just wish for once we can give someone the benefit of the doubt and give them a proper chance before throwing in the towel in the first round.

[Attilio]

Some Dee fans have had a dislike for PH since he came to the club and cannot wait until he starts to mess up .  I don't know 100% why this is but in some cases I personally think it goes back to the previous manager and how they perceived he was treated by the club and the criticism he received on Mad in particular.  It is going to take a hell of a lot to get PH on their side but in some cases it is never going to happen. 

[Ivan Drago]

Some Dee fans have had a dislike for PH since he came to the club and cannot wait until he starts to mess up . I don't know 100% why this is but in some cases I personally think it goes back to the previous manager and how they perceived he was treated by the club and the criticism he received on Mad in particular. It is going to take a hell of a lot to get PH on their side but in some cases it is never going to happen.

Atillo

If that's aimed at me you are 100% wrong. I did defend Bomber as I thought the criticism levied at him was over the top. I have no shame in admitting to that. I also think that hartley is well over hyped on the back of little or nothing.

However to say I want him to fail is nonsense.

Like all dees I am hurting and embarrassed after witnessing the worst Derby result in our history. Some think this is a blip, I dont. I think it's more worrying than that. I think it's the sign of a lack of organisation and tactical awareness.

It is possible for people to ask pertenent questions of Hartley without longing for brown.

Let him go bud.

Edit to add you obviously missed my posts when I said it was the right time for Bomber to go also.

[Attilio]

ivan_drago, on 03 Jan 2015 - 2:50 PM, said:

Atillo

If that's aimed at me you are 100% wrong. I did defend Bomber as I thought the criticism levied at him was over the top. I have no shame in admitting to that. I also think that hartley is well over hyped on the back of little or nothing.

However to say I want him to fail is nonsense.

Like all dees I am hurting and embarrassed after witnessing the worst Derby result in our history. Some think this is a blip, I dont. I think it's more worrying than that. I think it's the sign of a lack of organisation and tactical awareness.

It is possible for people to ask pertenent questions of Hartley without longing for brown.

Let him go bud.

Edit to add you obviously missed my posts when I said it was the right time for Bomber to go also.

Ivan - the post was not aimed at you and I did see your earlier posts.

[Ivan Drago]

Ivan - the post was not aimed at you and I did see your earlier posts.

Apologies atillo.

[deefly78]

For everyone who is wanting Hartley to start earning his wage, this also applies to the players. Harkins for a start, people think he is untouchable but if your pointing fingers at Hartley why not at the like of Harkins too???

Too many people are quick to jump on Hartleys back but what about the players that put him in this situation????

Yes its true if it was bomber almost all fans would be calling for him to be sacked but the players bomber had also were letting him down week in week out.

Hartleys managing decisions have been bizarre over the past 5/6 games but lets give the man some time, he seems to be hard working but there is only so much he can do from the sidelines once the games have started, once he gets tactics, formation and subs sorted its up to the players on the park

[barkblue]

For everyone who is wanting Hartley to start earning his wage, this also applies to the players. Harkins for a start, people think he is untouchable but if your pointing fingers at Hartley why not at the like of Harkins too???

Too many people are quick to jump on Hartleys back but what about the players that put him in this situation????

Yes its true if it was bomber almost all fans would be calling for him to be sacked but the players bomber had also were letting him down week in week out.

Hartleys managing decisions have been bizarre over the past 5/6 games but lets give the man some time, he seems to be hard working but there is only so much he can do from the sidelines once the games have started, once he gets tactics, formation and subs sorted its up to the players on the park

To be fair to Hartley, from the 11 he put out on Sunday, I doubt he thought he'd ever play a midfield combo of McAlister and Davidson, nor McGowan on RM. Add in a make-shift keeper and our starting RB being suspended and there are mitigating circumstances for Thursday's debacle.

And yet, the lack of FB cover, the unfit Thomson, the third choice keeper, formations with a serious lack of width in the middle of the park (McNamara knew to exploit that, the wee jobby Mackay Stevens hasn't even been getting a game for them recently and looked like a fork-ing world beater against Dyer and no midfiled cover) and suspect substitutions have all been Hartley's decisions.

In truth, if any manager gets 60-70% of his signings spot on, then he's doing pretty good, yet with resigning Dyer, bringing in Thomson, Ferry, Roberts and possibly Harkins and Tank haven't really worked out so far. I'd suggest Stewart, McGinn, McGowan, McPake, (up till two weeks ago) Konrad (and so far) Clarkson and Bain have, so it's about 50/50 so far.

I'm 100% behind Hartley at the moment, but can't say that he has carte blanche to keep getting it wrong and still receive full backing. He should know his tactics and formation by now.

[Attilio]

ivan_drago, on 03 Jan 2015 - 3:04 PM, said:

Apologies atillo.

No need for apologies Ivan, this is a message board and you put your case well.

The thing I'm not getting is this 'hype' or 'over hype' business.  Apart from a very few posters on Mad, I can't remember seeing much agreement for PH being labelled the 'best young manager in Britain' or the 'messiah'. I think the majority of pro-Hartley supporters were glad to see him in charge as we saw him as a step in the right direction for our club compared with previous managers.  I'm sure for most of us that is still the case.  We are certainly going through a major bad spell and I don't see anyone saying we aren't.

For a club of Dundee's size and with their recent history, a young manager like Hartley, with his recent achievements, is exactly who we should be going for imo, when it comes to choosing a new manager.  I don't see us as being able to compete in the market for more experienced and more successful managers.

Going in to the Derby on Thursday, we didn't think that Schenk would be playing in goal in such an important and difficult game and then have such a nightmare (still can't blame the guy tbh).  No one would have thought that Konrad and Dyer (who you, I and a lot of others have rated) would play like complete amateurs.  If we had more luck with injuries, Davidson and McAllister would have been nowhere near CM in that game.  But they were there unfortunately.  No mention of any of this though and it was straight for the jugular with PH.

It may not be the case with you but with others I just see this as a response to the criticism that one of their heroes was getting last year.

[Ivan Drago]

No need for apologies Ivan, this is a message board and you put your case well.

The thing I'm not getting is this 'hype' or 'over hype' business. Apart from a very few posters on Mad, I can't remember seeing much agreement for PH being labelled the 'best young manager in Britain' or the 'messiah'. I think the majority of pro-Hartley supporters were glad to see him in charge as we saw him as a step in the right direction for our club compared with previous managers. I'm sure for most of us that is still the case. We are certainly going through a major bad spell and I don't see anyone saying we aren't.

For a club of Dundee's size and with their recent history, a young manager like Hartley, with his recent achievements, is exactly who we should be going for imo, when it comes to choosing a new manager. I don't see us as being able to compete in the market for more experienced and more successful managers.

Going in to the Derby on Thursday, we didn't think that Schenk would be playing in goal in such an important and difficult game and then have such a nightmare (still can't blame the guy tbh). No one would have thought that Konrad and Dyer (who you, I and a lot of others have rated) would play like complete amateurs. If we had more luck with injuries, Davidson and McAllister would have been nowhere near CM in that game. But they were there unfortunately. No mention of any of this though and it was straight for the jugular with PH.

It may not be the case with you but with others I just see this as a response to the criticism that one of their heroes was getting last year.

All very fair points atillo

However I went straight for the jugular for ph because these issues are predominantly his fault. He played with a lack of width that exposed dyer against a pace man he was going to struggle against. He persists with JMac despite him struggling week in week out. He decided against signing any ch cover meaning we have had to persist with a player who has had a major slump of form. He also made the age old mistake of signing "class if fit" players. He built a side with absolutely no pace anywhere in the first XI. We are also suffering a horrendous injury list yet again, a lot picked up in training, I thought this was supposed to be his forte but no. These are glaring errors and in the case of a lack of width something he has purposely done.

For those reasons I don't buy that we are going in the right direction at any speed. We had a good start but now we have hit a terrible slump that needs to be addressed. One home league win, the heaviest Derby defeat EVER and 2 points from a possible 21 is indefensible and dire. I get the feeling from your posts you are a similar age to me so we both know that the dee faithful usually aren't this patient.

I hope he turns it round and to be fair I think today's two signings will both benefit the team.

Fingers crossed for a massive game tomorrow and ph firmly shuts my pus