Stadium Latest.

[Gedee]

59 minutes ago, QuesoGrande said:

Agree the football team itself is just a means to an end to get a commercial development in place. Concerts, exhibitions, conferences etc as well as the other commercial aspects are worth investing in. As many people have found out, it’s extremely difficult to make any money out of Scottish football. 

Hi Queso (&/or others)...I've probably asked this before (But cannae remember)

Does DFC, as a Football Club, get any direct financial benefit from FPS &" other associated new partners" to this New Enterprise?

Or does All of that Extra Money (if successful) go direct/& only to, the new investors to the "project"? I am NOT dismissing benefits of a New Comfortable Stadium being offered to the Club and the Fans & Supporters...But financially (in a direct way) are we as a Club, going to have more money, through an increases in income to spend on  more new upgraded players, so, we can realise our  own ambitions in "football terms"?  Hope that makes some sense, because I'd really like some answers/responses

Just to add, I dinnae resent FPS & their new partners, reaping the main benefits from their investment

But I'd hate to think DFC is being used as  Main Vehicle allowing others to grab all the rewards/returns

It's unlikely I'll be here to see it, but I'd like to think in Our Future New Stadium DFC's A Top Six Club

And I think all of us will probably agree, that will need, Some Very Serious Further Future Investments

[QuesoGrande]

26 minutes ago, Gedee said:

Hi Queso (&/or others)...I've probably asked this before (But cannae remember)

Does DFC, as a Football Club, get any direct financial benefit from FPS &" other associated new partners" to this New Enterprise?

Or does All of that Extra Money (if successful) go direct/& only to, the new investors to the "project"? I am NOT dismissing benefits of a New Comfortable Stadium being offered to the Club and the Fans & Supporters...But financially (in a direct way) are we as a Club, going to have more money, through an increases in income to spend on  more new upgraded players, so, we can realise our  own ambitions in "football terms"?  Hope that makes some sense, because I'd really like some answers/responses

Just to add, I dinnae resent FPS & their new partners, reaping the main benefits from their investment

But I'd hate to think DFC is being used as  Main Vehicle allowing others to grab all the rewards/returns

It's unlikely I'll be here to see it, but I'd like to think in Our Future New Stadium DFC's A Top Six Club

And I think all of us will probably agree, that will need, Some Very Serious Further Future Investments

Gedee fwiw here’s my uneducated guess!

DFC gets football revenue. Gate receipts, season tix, hospo, SPFL funding, shirt sponsorship, shop sales. That should increase with a new stadium as more fans come (in theory!). 

Dark Blue Property Holdings get non football revenue. Rent from DFC and other tenants, income from concerts etc. 

I think though there is a ‘grey area’ that I have no idea how it works. Stadium naming for example, is that football or non football revenue? The new beer hall - could be prematch football revenue or commercial non football revenue? Then the twisty accounting ins and outs of how money flows between DFC, FPS, DBPH is a mystery to me. Profits and losses get moved around by crafty accountants and tax lawyers and no one except John and Tim and their team will ever know the full story there!

So does DFC get direct financial benefit - yes from increased gates etc. Does DFC get indirect financial benefit - yes/probably/maybe/I think so/not sure.

[Gedee]

15 minutes ago, QuesoGrande said:

Gedee fwiw here’s my uneducated guess!

DFC gets football revenue. Gate receipts, season tix, hospo, SPFL funding, shirt sponsorship, shop sales. That should increase with a new stadium as more fans come (in theory!). 

Dark Blue Property Holdings get non football revenue. Rent from DFC and other tenants, income from concerts etc. 

I think though there is a ‘grey area’ that I have no idea how it works. Stadium naming for example, is that football or non football revenue? The new beer hall - could be prematch football revenue or commercial non football revenue? Then the twisty accounting ins and outs of how money flows between DFC, FPS, DBPH is a mystery to me. Profits and losses get moved around by crafty accountants and tax lawyers and no one except John and Tim and their team will ever know the full story there!

So does DFC get direct financial benefit - yes from increased gates etc. Does DFC get indirect financial benefit - yes/probably/maybe/I think so/not sure.

Hi Queso ... Thank you for you detailed, quick response.

Think this must be most knowledgeable, logical, thought-through answer, I have had yet, to this question, that's been rolling around my head for ages. Maybe this was there somewhere, in the initial announcement/plans, when all the details were laid out (But if they were, I guess I must have missed them, or not understood them). On the other hand, maybe FPS/Property Holdings didnae know themselves, or more likely, didnae want to openly discuss such matters on a public platform.

(I have discussed this "question" (discreetly) with ....My Inner Voices)

But without any details, they could only echo your closing comments.

On that basis, I've decided to award your detailed post...5 Stars

[Billy Campbell's Ghost]

I dont  see the football club getting revenue from curling rink, cremy, hotel, housing, shops. Etc. That has to go back to investors as will the rent we as a club will pay for residing at the new stadium. The investors have to see something for their investment.

I think club revenue will be as it is now and as stated in the above post.  Activities and events within the stadium? Thats one I dont know but the whole development has been sold to us fans as benefiting the football club so heres hoping thats a reality.

[QuesoGrande]

57 minutes ago, Gedee said:

Hi Queso ... Thank you for you detailed, quick response.

Think this must be most knowledgeable, logical, thought-through answer, I have had yet, to this question, that's been rolling around my head for ages. Maybe this was there somewhere, in the initial announcement/plans, when all the details were laid out (But if they were, I guess I must have missed them, or not understood them). On the other hand, maybe FPS/Property Holdings didnae know themselves, or more likely, didnae want to openly discuss such matters on a public platform.

(I have discussed this "question" (discreetly) with ....My Inner Voices)

But without any details, they could only echo your closing comments.

On that basis, I've decided to award your detailed post...5 Stars

Maybe make use of JNs schemes and split the pension across your many voices for purposes of tax Gedee. 
Each of the voices could get their own holding company

[Daniel Watson]

On 07/03/2024 at 16:12, Parcbara said:

Throughout my life, my hopes with regard to anything involving Dundee Football Club have for the most part been dashed, with some fabulous exceptions though. I am hopeful again. If  this comes off, it will be magnificent. I love Dens, but it is finished,  if it is not upgraded . Given the choice, I would go for the new stadium .

Unfortunately apart from the substandard condition of the stadium you need to look at the approaches to the stadium. The surrounds of the stadium are sadly very run down, litter strewn streets, unkempt gardens and semi derelict properties. It’s not a pleasant experience walking to both Dundee Football stadiums, there are lots of nice people who live in the area but it desperately needs redevelopment.

[Bobby123]

5 hours ago, Daniel Watson said:

Unfortunately apart from the substandard condition of the stadium you need to look at the approaches to the stadium. The surrounds of the stadium are sadly very run down, litter strewn streets, unkempt gardens and semi derelict properties. It’s not a pleasant experience walking to both Dundee Football stadiums, there are lots of nice people who live in the area but it desperately needs redevelopment.

A big part of the problem is that most tenements in Dundee do not have a factor to maintain the communal areas.Glasgow and Edinburgh every tenement has a factor and they are maintained.

Plus tenement flat owners used to stay in them nowadays they have moved on  and let the flats to anybody.

[HK Blues]

20 hours ago, Gedee said:

Hi Queso (&/or others)...I've probably asked this before (But cannae remember)

Does DFC, as a Football Club, get any direct financial benefit from FPS &" other associated new partners" to this New Enterprise?

Or does All of that Extra Money (if successful) go direct/& only to, the new investors to the "project"? I am NOT dismissing benefits of a New Comfortable Stadium being offered to the Club and the Fans & Supporters...But financially (in a direct way) are we as a Club, going to have more money, through an increases in income to spend on  more new upgraded players, so, we can realise our  own ambitions in "football terms"?  Hope that makes some sense, because I'd really like some answers/responses

Just to add, I dinnae resent FPS & their new partners, reaping the main benefits from their investment

But I'd hate to think DFC is being used as  Main Vehicle allowing others to grab all the rewards/returns

It's unlikely I'll be here to see it, but I'd like to think in Our Future New Stadium DFC's A Top Six Club

And I think all of us will probably agree, that will need, Some Very Serious Further Future Investments

My opinion varies depending on what 'hat' I wear.

On one hand, the consensus seems to be the football club was the 'way in' for the business and an integral part of the development so maybe deserved some kind of benefit from the overall development.  On the other hand, it's business and should behave like any business - if your landlord spent a fortune developing your home and then sold it on at a profit would you reasonably expect a share of the profit? (I know it's not exactly a like-for-like comparison but close enough, maybe). 

It's their money and their business and ultimately theirs to do with as they wish but they're not dumb and know that they pretty much have to do fair by the football club as this will impact on the success of the whole development.  

We can but hope that the overall development's success feeds into the club in some way.

[Reverend Lovejoy]

46 minutes ago, HK Blues said:

My opinion varies depending on what 'hat' I wear.

On one hand, the consensus seems to be the football club was the 'way in' for the business and an integral part of the development so maybe deserved some kind of benefit from the overall development.  On the other hand, it's business and should behave like any business - if your landlord spent a fortune developing your home and then sold it on at a profit would you reasonably expect a share of the profit? (I know it's not exactly a like-for-like comparison but close enough, maybe). 

It's their money and their business and ultimately theirs to do with as they wish but they're not dumb and know that they pretty much have to do fair by the football club as this will impact on the success of the whole development.  

We can but hope that the overall development's success feeds into the club in some way.

The Aberdeen press (report on AFC's stadium situation) seem to think that Dundee Football Clubs financial commitment to the project will be in the region of £40m. If that's close to being anywhere near accurate then I think we'll have to be given access to some of the non football related revenues to afford the repayments. 

[GordonDarkBlue]

1 hour ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

The Aberdeen press (report on AFC's stadium situation) seem to think that Dundee Football Clubs financial commitment to the project will be in the region of £40m. If that's close to being anywhere near accurate then I think we'll have to be given access to some of the non football related revenues to afford the repayments. 

The club will not have any financial commitment to the development other than paying rent. 

[harry94]

2 hours ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

The Aberdeen press (report on AFC's stadium situation) seem to think that Dundee Football Clubs financial commitment to the project will be in the region of £40m. If that's close to being anywhere near accurate then I think we'll have to be given access to some of the non football related revenues to afford the repayments. 

It sounds like there wouldn't really be any financial commitment from the club, there's no real way it can be borrowed against as there's zero assets.

Warning - I'm throwing numbers and making simplification about here in ignorance but this is the way I see it....

Dundee FC will sign a nominal lease on something 'substantially' less than the £700k a season (which is the figure FPS have thrown around as rent + maintenance) and that'll be that, there wouldn't be any formal interchange with the revenue generation side of things.

If we're to assume that it's halving the expenses as they are right now (effectively boosting the clubs finances by more than £350k a year), then you're probably only talking something like £10 million of it being offset (assuming FPS took on some mechanism to give 60 years averaging at something like 3-4% interest which would be more typical than we see right now).

The bare bones of it - i.e. the stadium, training ground and maybe whatever hospitality units are in the stadium is estimated at around £30-40 million overall. I would suspect that there will also be some local/gov money that almost stealthily helps with this part, I think the messaging re Gardyne and some of the charm offensive to the SFA is probably playing a decent part here.

For the other big expenses - 210 homes, 120 room hotel, crematorium, curling facility - FPS will be viewing this as very high margin and capable of immediately flipping sizable cash (or maybe they will take deeper involvement and try to make money through ongoing operations) to subsidise the rest. This is kind of off balance sheet but at the extreme end, it's something like £100 million in spend. Who knows what the further breakdown actually is but some of the sums you see on new developer projects are eye watering and often exceed 2:1, if FPS somehow reached that return they'd be about £70 million up!

There's a lot of heavy lifting in the assumptions there and the model is going to be really complex behind the scenes (and plenty of others would need to take significant cuts) but you could understand how someone could play around with these numbers and see the $$$, even if the football club are contributing a very insignificant amount of it. Ultimately they got this land basically dirt cheap because no one could build a viable planning proposal on it (and around building the site around Dundee FC is a tool which brings support and significant economic return to the area).

The fact of the matter is that Scottish councils don't really invest in stadia in the way they do down south and Dundee have zero assets as one of the only teams in the country that don't own their stadium, we're undoubtedly still haunted by the admin 1 Marr era. Any proposal for a new stadium or properly fixing the Dens situation is going to either be a dying wealthy benefactor (with no kids) or part of some much more audacious bigger proposal. I think had the older Euro format persisted for another couple of decades we possibly would be chatting seriously about a council owned Caird Park stadium.

[QuesoGrande]

Dundee Civic Trust have submitted their objections today according to Courier. 
Congestion is their main issue plus impact on businesses at the leisure park.