Stadium Latest.

[Gedee]

Thank you to all posters who have made an effort to answer my question...On the the Direct Financial Benefits to DFC?

Appreciate all your responses/contributions, which are clarifying some of the issues going round my head at this time.

I am not trying to "stir things up" Just trying to fully understand direct financial arrangements/benefits to FPS and DFC.

All posts/responses above helped a little. Your contribution was particularly so Harry (It is not an easy area for me)

Just Hoping Contracts/Arrangements Negotiated are Fair, Satisfactory, Successful...Benefits All Parties involved

[Reverend Lovejoy]

2 hours ago, GordonDarkBlue said:

The club will not have any financial commitment to the development other than paying rent. 

Or maybe a long term mortgage?.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Gedee said:

Thank you to all posters who have made an effort to answer my question...On the the Direct Financial Benefits to DFC?

Appreciate all your responses/contributions, which are clarifying some of the issues going round my head at this time.

I am not trying to "stir things up" Just trying to fully understand direct financial arrangements/benefits to FPS and DFC.

All posts/responses above helped a little. Your contribution was particularly so Harry (It is not an easy area for me)

Just Hoping Contracts/Arrangements Negotiated are Fair, Satisfactory, Successful...Benefits All Parties involved

Some very important questions raised Gedee which really require answers before the fans of this club sleepwalk into something they may end up wishing they hadn't. Whilst there are a few good things TK and JN have done to help the club over the years, (and some not so good), I believe they are in this first and foremost for themselves. They may have developed a fond relationship with the club, it's supporters and the city over the years however football is not known for it's loyalty.

Details of the commercial agreement between the club and the investors behind the stadium development should be communicated however I doubt that will be the case. Dundee Football Club is it's support and I have underlying concerns that we may be taken advantage of. I hope not, however the supporters should be provided with clear and honest answers regarding any aspect of this arrangement that they have concerns about or require clarification over. 

[Reverend Lovejoy]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

It sounds like there wouldn't really be any financial commitment from the club, there's no real way it can be borrowed against as there's zero assets.

Warning - I'm throwing numbers and making simplification about here in ignorance but this is the way I see it....

Dundee FC will sign a nominal lease on something 'substantially' less than the £700k a season (which is the figure FPS have thrown around as rent + maintenance) and that'll be that, there wouldn't be any formal interchange with the revenue generation side of things.

If we're to assume that it's halving the expenses as they are right now (effectively boosting the clubs finances by more than £350k a year), then you're probably only talking something like £10 million of it being offset (assuming FPS took on some mechanism to give 60 years averaging at something like 3-4% interest which would be more typical than we see right now).

The bare bones of it - i.e. the stadium, training ground and maybe whatever hospitality units are in the stadium is estimated at around £30-40 million overall. I would suspect that there will also be some local/gov money that almost stealthily helps with this part, I think the messaging re Gardyne and some of the charm offensive to the SFA is probably playing a decent part here.

For the other big expenses - 210 homes, 120 room hotel, crematorium, curling facility - FPS will be viewing this as very high margin and capable of immediately flipping sizable cash (or maybe they will take deeper involvement and try to make money through ongoing operations) to subsidise the rest. This is kind of off balance sheet but at the extreme end, it's something like £100 million in spend. Who knows what the further breakdown actually is but some of the sums you see on new developer projects are eye watering and often exceed 2:1, if FPS somehow reached that return they'd be about £70 million up!

There's a lot of heavy lifting in the assumptions there and the model is going to be really complex behind the scenes (and plenty of others would need to take significant cuts) but you could understand how someone could play around with these numbers and see the $$$, even if the football club are contributing a very insignificant amount of it. Ultimately they got this land basically dirt cheap because no one could build a viable planning proposal on it (and around building the site around Dundee FC is a tool which brings support and significant economic return to the area).

The fact of the matter is that Scottish councils don't really invest in stadia in the way they do down south and Dundee have zero assets as one of the only teams in the country that don't own their stadium, we're undoubtedly still haunted by the admin 1 Marr era. Any proposal for a new stadium or properly fixing the Dens situation is going to either be a dying wealthy benefactor (with no kids) or part of some much more audacious bigger proposal. I think had the older Euro format persisted for another couple of decades we possibly would be chatting seriously about a council owned Caird Park stadium.

Not pretending that I understand all of that but what I do understand sounds plausible. I've no idea where the Aberdeen press got the £40m figure from so I've no idea if there's anything in it. Could it be possible that we pay a mortgage that lasts until we reach a certain amount (say £40m for arguments sake) and after that the stadium is back in our hands?. 

[troodee1893]

Dundee Civic Trust tearing the Camperdown plans apart!! Genuine concerns or the usual nimby scaremongering? Wonder if any DABs running the Civic Trust or just reacting to objections from DABs? I just love a good conspiracy theory.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, troodee1893 said:

Dundee Civic Trust tearing the Camperdown plans apart!! Genuine concerns or the usual nimby scaremongering? Wonder if any DABs running the Civic Trust or just reacting to objections from DABs? I just love a good conspiracy theory.

I did post a while back that DABS will be lodging their objections and will play the Council just for the fun of it. 

We'll be lucky to have full planning approved by the end of 2025, never mind Nelm's prediction that the stadium will be complete. 

[harry94]

10 minutes ago, Reverend Lovejoy said:

Not pretending that I understand all of that but what I do understand sounds plausible. I've no idea where the Aberdeen press got the £40m figure from so I've no idea if there's anything in it. Could it be possible that we pay a mortgage that lasts until we reach a certain amount (say £40m for arguments sake) and after that the stadium is back in our hands?. 

Nelms said the £40 million figure it in a few interviews last year (implication he made was £40m on the football part of the project then a much bigger £100m on the rest).

I guess any Dundee FC specific ownership would be very dependent on what rental agreement FPS decide and the club are at their mercy. I'd hope that there would be something in there to give some path to some future ownership (even if it's a whole generation off, I'd rather the club are run sustainably and gradually get some assets back).

The cynic in me says that no business person is doing this deal without at least keeping cards back to ramp up the rent in the future if things go badly wrong (even if they are genuine)...

[QuesoGrande]

6 minutes ago, troodee1893 said:

Dundee Civic Trust tearing the Camperdown plans apart!! Genuine concerns or the usual nimby scaremongering? Wonder if any DABs running the Civic Trust or just reacting to objections from DABs? I just love a good conspiracy theory.

Probably a bit of both. Their role (ok maybe self appointed) is to make sure things are done ‘properly’ and they have to look out for the city as a whole. Some of their concerns seem genuine - I tend to agree that cinema, ice rink and food places are going to struggle during home games as fans fill their car park. Maybe offset a little for MaccyDs etc as fans may stop on their way out. Some of their other complaints are a bit of a stretch tho.

My issue with these sort of things is objectors never propose a solution. I get that it’s not their role to suggest improvements but it does come across as nimbyism. It’s easy just to say that’s shyte and that won’t work, I’d prefer if it was more collaborative and they offered some suggestions.

[Gedee]

Appreciate the way this discussion is going & would like to hear more balanced views from others.

TK, JN, & any other interested  investors will have proven record/history of successful investments.

That being the case, they will not allow their hearts to rule their heads. They will do their homework.

Returns must match High Risk investment surely (even if it's long term) So what's on offer for DFC?

(Sorry for bringing this up again)...Especially when this season, FPS are again backing DFC so well.

When John Nelms was asked about "Campie Project" in a TV interview (years ago) he emphasised

Energetically/Strongly...Where and whatever Division DFC were in at the time, the Project will go on.

TBH, think (hope) it was a slip of the tongue, at the time.

With  Campie Project/Stadium Moving Steadily Forward.

Club and Investors must work openly and fairly together.

DFC are not in a position to directly invest. But surely it's

In each other's interest to see Success in Club & Project

C' MON THE DARK BLUES  TOGETHER WE CAN DO IT

[mitch]

A volunteer group , probably run by DABS… what would you expect

[GordonDarkBlue]

1 hour ago, Aberdee said:

I did post a while back that DABS will be lodging their objections and will play the Council just for the fun of it. 

We'll be lucky to have full planning approved by the end of 2025, never mind Nelm's prediction that the stadium will be complete. 

I think the comment from Nelms on the completion of the stadium date has been taken a bit out of context. The date was the best possible date if everything went perfectly. Nelms didn't really expect that date to happen but said he wants to be ambitious and keep pushing forward with the project so would be aggressive with aim dates

[QuesoGrande]

16 minutes ago, GordonDarkBlue said:

I think the comment from Nelms on the completion of the stadium date has been taken a bit out of context. The date was the best possible date if everything went perfectly. Nelms didn't really expect that date to happen but said he wants to be ambitious and keep pushing forward with the project so would be aggressive with aim dates

Fairly typical of everywhere I’ve worked tbh. Throw out a project timeline that everyone knows won’t be met but it’s a nice soundbite. At some point it will evolve into a more sensible date